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nos482
Inactive Member


Message 76 of 106 (19841)
10-14-2002 8:18 AM
Reply to: Message 75 by Quetzal
10-14-2002 7:46 AM


quote:
Originally posted by Quetzal:
What an interesting post. I hope that if you ever get around to actually discussing the scientific evidence for creationism, as you have indicated you are interested in doing at some point, you will tone down the rhetoric a bit. Otherwise it's likely to be a very short conversation.
Short? How about nonexistent.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by Quetzal, posted 10-14-2002 7:46 AM Quetzal has not replied

  
doctrbill
Member (Idle past 2764 days)
Posts: 1174
From: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Joined: 01-08-2001


Message 77 of 106 (19899)
10-15-2002 2:01 AM
Reply to: Message 66 by Wordswordsman
10-13-2002 9:18 AM


"approaching science from God's perspective." ?
If you see things from God's perspective then you are of necessity a god yourself. Yes?
------------------

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by Wordswordsman, posted 10-13-2002 9:18 AM Wordswordsman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by Wordswordsman, posted 10-17-2002 11:22 AM doctrbill has replied

  
Wordswordsman
Inactive Member


Message 78 of 106 (20120)
10-17-2002 11:22 AM
Reply to: Message 77 by doctrbill
10-15-2002 2:01 AM


quote:
Originally posted by doctrbill:
"approaching science from God's perspective." ?
If you see things from God's perspective then you are of necessity a god yourself. Yes?
No. However, I believe this from the Bible:
1 Cor. 2:16
"For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ."
Jesus was accused of violating the law by claiming He was deity. He responded by quoting the scriptures:
John 10:34
"Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?"
If judges among men were called gods, why would it be blasphemy for Him to claim deity when He was the Son of God and one with God? Jesus is deity, as the scriptures testify, which also reveal my own position in Christ, as a citizen of heaven, a subject of the Kingdom of God, a co-heir with Christ. While not deity, I am a child of God, a judge among men able to identify the dogs.
I do have the same perspective on reality that is characteristic of deity, that of the Lord Jesus Christ. I get that from the Bible and through leading of the Spirit of God in me.
You seem to lack identity with a proper recognition of the true God. There are many gods in this world, but only one true God. It couldn't be that there are many competing gods, else heavenly warfare would break out destroying everything in an instant, for the ideals of all those gods oppose each other.
The was a young boy who never knew which of two women serving as "mother" actually birthed him. Both claimed him, keeping him confused. One day a mother looked out the door to see the boy in danger of attack from a tiger creeping upon him. She stepped outside to command the boy to run to the house before the tiger got him. The boy froze up upon seeing the tiger advancing, unable to run. The woman issued more instruction from the doorway, trying to get the boy to do something to save himself. Upon hearing the clamor, the other woman investigated, seeing the danger. She rushed to the boy, intercepting the tiger's path, falling into the claws of the tiger to her death. The tiger was satisfied with his prey, allowing the boy to escape.
The boy then knew who his real mother was. The other woman represents religion. Religion has no real god that can save, being too far away and uncommitted to be personally involved. Religion can only issue instructions for people to try to save themselves, unable to overcome the power of sin, represented by the tiger. The woman sacrificing her life for the boy represents the true God, the only God ever willing to give his life for the sins of men. The boy represents all humans, incapable of saving themselves through any deed or deeds. Sin keeps men captive, destroying them.
A young man fell into the river, unable to escape its current, being a weak swimmer. Bystanders called out to him to swim harder. "Save yourself". Some offered swimming lessons as the young man failed to resist the pull of the water. Word was sent to the young man's father, who rushed to the scene, immediately diving into the river, saving his son. God, the true Father, saves, while religion offers ways to save yourself.
Understand the nature of God, and how He views His children of faith.
Understand the impact of too many religions in the world. A man suddenly homeless in the cold of winter was invited to travel to a friend's home, to live there while the owner was away on business. "I will leave a door key under the mat for you to enter my home." Upon reaching the place, the man discovered thousands of similar keys under the mat. "Which one is the right one?" He tried one, it failed. He continued trying keys, each failing. The man perished from exposure to the weather before gaining entrance. The false keys prevented his finding the true key in time to be saved.
There is only one true key, and that is Jesus Christ, who is also the Door. There cannot be many keys to the same heaven. There is only one. Christians carry the true key, willing to share it with those not able to discern the true from the false.
Understand that true religion is to give life. One can give without loving, but cannot love without giving. God gave His only Son that we might live.
Understand why God accepted that punishment we deserve. If I ask to borrow a fine watch from you, you might allow me with a caution of its great value. I accept, wearing the watch, but alas, return to you with the watch broken. I beg your forgiveness. If you forgive me, saying "That is unfortunate, but I forgive you, don't worry about this.", would true forgiveness be in effect if you required me to repair the watch? No. If you forgave me, you accept the watch as is, accepting the expense of repairing it. But if you refuse to forgive, refusing to accept my apology, then I remain unforgiven, subject to the penalty of repairing the watch before returning it to you. Ah, but if you forgive, you accept the penalty.
In the same sense, if I sin using my hands, and God forgives me, a penalty remains to be paid. Blood must be shed. Hindus believe this. Shedding of holy blood is sufficient. If the violation is in my hands, then God's forgiveness must bring punishment on His own hands. If my feet were swift to carry me to sin, then God's forgiveness of that must involve punishment of His feet. If my mind is used in sinfull exploits, then forgiveness of my thoughts must involve punishment of God's head. My entire body was involved in sin, requiring the punishement of the entire body of God in order to satisfy the penalty. It was satisfied on the cross of Christ, with nails in His hands and feet, a crown of thorns on His head. True love gave. Hindus have millions of gods and gossesses, not one of which is known to have so given. But their own religious texts tell of a time when God would come down, be born in a manger, of a virgin, shedding His blood, dying for the sin of men, making it possible for a person to enter heaven. When they hear of the Asian God not born in America or Britain, but Asia, who did that, they accept Him, eventually realizing the other gods on their walls offer them nothing. Hindus are finding their own, true God in Jesus Christ. So are many other people of other religions. God saves.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by doctrbill, posted 10-15-2002 2:01 AM doctrbill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by doctrbill, posted 10-17-2002 9:46 PM Wordswordsman has replied

  
doctrbill
Member (Idle past 2764 days)
Posts: 1174
From: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Joined: 01-08-2001


Message 79 of 106 (20146)
10-17-2002 9:46 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by Wordswordsman
10-17-2002 11:22 AM


quote:
Originally posted by doctrbill:
If you see things from God's perspective then you are of necessity a god yourself. Yes?
quote:
Originally posted by Wordswordsman:
No. However, ...
I do have the same perspective on reality that is characteristic of deity,

So, your answer is No, with a qualified Yes?!
quote:
Originally posted by Wordswordsman:
It couldn't be that there are many competing gods, else heavenly warfare would break out destroying everything in an instant, for the ideals of all those gods oppose each other.

A. There couldn't be competing gods, AND their ideals oppose each other?
B. War between the gods would destroy everything? Wouldn't an omnipotent god have the upper hand in such a conflict? Is your god not omnipotent?
BTW, If I had wanted a sermon I would have asked.
db
------------------
Creationism Evolves!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by Wordswordsman, posted 10-17-2002 11:22 AM Wordswordsman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by Wordswordsman, posted 10-18-2002 2:32 AM doctrbill has replied

  
Wordswordsman
Inactive Member


Message 80 of 106 (20153)
10-18-2002 2:32 AM
Reply to: Message 79 by doctrbill
10-17-2002 9:46 PM


quote:
Originally posted by doctrbill:
If you see things from God's perspective then you are of necessity a god yourself. Yes?
quote:
Originally posted by Wordswordsman:
No. However, ...
I do have the same perspective on reality that is characteristic of deity,
quote:
So, your answer is No, with a qualified Yes?!
You continue to lack understanding of the subject. I am a new creature in Christ, being conformed to His image glory to glory.
quote:
Originally posted by Wordswordsman:
It couldn't be that there are many competing gods, else heavenly warfare would break out destroying everything in an instant, for the ideals of all those gods oppose each other.
quote:
A. There couldn't be competing gods, AND their ideals oppose each other?
How could a god be a successful god if other gods opposed a god? If no god could affect another god, then none could be gods, being limited.
quote:
B. War between the gods would destroy everything? Wouldn't an omnipotent god have the upper hand in such a conflict? Is your god not omnipotent?
A god is a god. How could there be grades or degrees of gods? If there were multiple gods, one could not be superior to the others, else the others would be less than a god. My God is the only God, with no other gods before Him. He won't have it, not even tolerating ficticious gods. His nature is revealed in the Bible, making it impossible for the existence of any other god.
quote:
BTW, If I had wanted a sermon I would have asked.
Nobody asks for sermons. Sermons are delivered by inspiration of God to people needing sermons.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by doctrbill, posted 10-17-2002 9:46 PM doctrbill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by doctrbill, posted 10-19-2002 12:37 AM Wordswordsman has replied
 Message 85 by doctrbill, posted 10-19-2002 4:03 PM Wordswordsman has replied

  
doctrbill
Member (Idle past 2764 days)
Posts: 1174
From: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Joined: 01-08-2001


Message 81 of 106 (20221)
10-19-2002 12:37 AM
Reply to: Message 80 by Wordswordsman
10-18-2002 2:32 AM


"Thou shalt have no other gods before me" Deuteronomy 5:7 KJV
What other gods?
"The LORD your God is God of gods" Deut.10:17 KJV
God of what?
"God has taken his place in the divine council; in the midst of the gods he holds judgment" Psalm 82:1 RSV
What divine council?
"Among the gods there is none like unto thee, O Lord" Psalm 86:8 KJV
Which gods?
Need more?
db
------------------
Creationism Evolves!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by Wordswordsman, posted 10-18-2002 2:32 AM Wordswordsman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by Wordswordsman, posted 10-19-2002 11:47 AM doctrbill has replied

  
Wordswordsman
Inactive Member


Message 82 of 106 (20251)
10-19-2002 11:47 AM
Reply to: Message 81 by doctrbill
10-19-2002 12:37 AM


quote:
Originally posted by doctrbill:
"Thou shalt have no other gods before me" Deuteronomy 5:7 KJV
What other gods?
Judges. It is not consistent with Scriptures that there are any other beings in the universe classed as actual gods like Jehovah is God. Elohim refers to human judges who had power of life and death in their hands, with no recourse but to accept their judgments. They were "as" gods, subject only to the God of judges. Even today an act of Congress would hardly dismiss a ruling of the Supreme Court without a very high proportion of votes against it, practically impossible, probably requiring a Constitutional (Bill of Rights) ammendment.
quote:
"The LORD your God is God of gods" Deut.10:17 KJV
God of what?
You have the bad habit of plucking verses out of context to make a case for something that was not addressed there. There was no mention of any other god, or any hint there was a god or gods the Lord competes with. That verse means the Eternal your Creator is the Creator of creators, the Sovereign of sovereigns, the Strong One, the Mighty One, the Fearful One, who champions the cause of the fatherless and widows without respect of persons. There is no man or angel equal to God, no king, no inventor, no politician, no mastermind world leader greater than God. He alone is the one to fear, to obey. Because God loves the orphan, the stranger, Israel was to so respect them and others God loves.
quote:
"God has taken his place in the divine council; in the midst of the gods he holds judgment" Psalm 82:1 RSV
What divine council?
This verse has been translated thus:
"God stands in the congregation of God; in the midst of the judges He gives judgment" (Berkeley);
"God stands in the Court of the Judge, in the midst of the Judges and asks" (Fenton);
"God stands in the congregation of angels; he judges among the angels" (Peshitta).
The contextual idea is that God is the Judge of judges in courts of justice established when He instituted human governments.
quote:
"Among the gods there is none like unto thee, O Lord" Psalm 86:8 KJV
Which gods?
Psalm 86:7-10 KJV
"In the day of my trouble I will call upon thee: for thou wilt answer me. [8] Among the gods there is none like unto thee, O Lord; neither are there any works like unto thy works. [9] All nations whom thou hast made shall come and worship before thee, O Lord; and shall glorify thy name. [10] For thou art great, and doest wondrous things: thou art God alone."
There I present the truth of the lie made by taking that verse out of context. You have misquoted that verse. It is clear there is no other god to be worshipped, that the issue of "other" gods was clearly known, that most religions around David sported dumb idols. Obviously David's use of the word 'elohiym is referring to greatest of earthly kings regarded as gods by their subjects, potentates, magistrates, judges, angels on earth and in heaven, and of course greater than any dumb idols regarded as gods which are no gods at all. No dumb idol of stone, glass, metal, plastic has made itself alive, speaking, acting among men. If it were so, the media would have it front page continuosly- we would hear all about it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by doctrbill, posted 10-19-2002 12:37 AM doctrbill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by John, posted 10-19-2002 12:54 PM Wordswordsman has replied
 Message 84 by doctrbill, posted 10-19-2002 3:36 PM Wordswordsman has not replied

  
John
Inactive Member


Message 83 of 106 (20262)
10-19-2002 12:54 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by Wordswordsman
10-19-2002 11:47 AM


quote:
Originally posted by Wordswordsman:
Elohim refers to human judges who had power of life and death in their hands, with no recourse but to accept their judgments. They were "as" gods, subject only to the God of judges.
This makes no sense in context, WS.
quote:
There was no mention of any other god, or any hint there was a god or gods the Lord competes with.
It is funny that you respond to the mention of other Gods in the Bible by denying that other Gods are mentioned in the Bible.
quote:
That verse means the Eternal your Creator is the Creator of creators, the Sovereign of sovereigns, the Strong One, the Mighty One, the Fearful One, who champions the cause of the fatherless and widows without respect of persons.
Sure it does. But you left out the part about "God of Gods". It is a throwback to a pantheistic past.
Out of curiosity I have been searching the OT and haven't found any passage in the JPS version where 'elohim' is translated 'judges'.
quote:
This verse has been translated thus:
"God stands in the congregation of God; in the midst of the judges He gives judgment" (Berkeley);
"God stands in the Court of the Judge, in the midst of the Judges and asks" (Fenton);
"God stands in the congregation of angels; he judges among the angels" (Peshitta).
The contextual idea is that God is the Judge of judges in courts of justice established when He instituted human governments.

hmm....
The JPS has
quote:
A Psalm of Asaph. God standeth in the congregation of God; in the midst of the judges He judgeth:
The Douey Rheims has
quote:
<> God hath stood in the congregation of gods: and being in the midst of them he judgeth gods.
The Darby has
quote:
<
> God standeth in the assembly of *God, he judgeth among the gods
The Bible in Basic English has
quote:
God is in the meeting-place of God; he is judging among the gods
The American Standard has
quote:
God standeth in the congregation of God; He judgeth among the gods.
... but kudos on the gymnastics.
quote:
It is clear there is no other god to be worshipped, that the issue of "other" gods was clearly known, that most religions around David sported dumb idols.
It is clear that there are no other Gods like the Hebrew God. This is not an uncommon claim for a God to make. Basically, it is an assertion of authority.
quote:
Obviously David's use of the word 'elohiym is referring to greatest of earthly kings regarded as gods by their subjects, potentates, magistrates, judges, angels on earth and in heaven, and of course greater than any dumb idols regarded as gods which are no gods at all.
Obvious only when one has to force a reading that is consistent with a very narrow world view.
------------------
http://www.hells-handmaiden.com

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by Wordswordsman, posted 10-19-2002 11:47 AM Wordswordsman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by Wordswordsman, posted 10-22-2002 6:59 AM John has replied

  
doctrbill
Member (Idle past 2764 days)
Posts: 1174
From: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Joined: 01-08-2001


Message 84 of 106 (20274)
10-19-2002 3:36 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by Wordswordsman
10-19-2002 11:47 AM


quote:
WWman 'elohiym is referring to greatest of earthly kings regarded as gods by their subjects, potentates, magistrates, judges, angels on earth and in heaven,
Elohim is used to describe anyone special.
It is used in Genesis 1 to describe the creator(s) of the universe. Elohim (God) is then modified for use in chapter two, where the creator is a specific elohim. One called YHWH Elohim (Jahovi God), as if Elohim were a family name.
Now why would they go and do that?
Oh, that's right, they ARE a family!
db
------------------
Creationism Evolves!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by Wordswordsman, posted 10-19-2002 11:47 AM Wordswordsman has not replied

  
doctrbill
Member (Idle past 2764 days)
Posts: 1174
From: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Joined: 01-08-2001


Message 85 of 106 (20276)
10-19-2002 4:03 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by Wordswordsman
10-18-2002 2:32 AM


quote:
wordwordsman
A god is a god. How could there be grades or degrees of gods?
How can there be grades or degrees of elohim? Are you aware that elohim is the word most often translated God and god and gods and goddess?
"the LORD your God is God of gods and Lord of lords, the great, the mighty, and the terrible God," Deuteronomy 10:17 RSV
All these comparatives and adjectives! You'd think that calling him god just wasn't enough. It would be superfluous if there were only one in existence.
My professedly virgin wife liked to say, "Honey, you're the best." And when I'd ask her, "Compared to what?" She found it difficult answer.
So, If your God is "the greatest," ... I ask you ... "compared to what?"
- Is your god the terrible one? -
db
------------------
Creationism Evolves!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by Wordswordsman, posted 10-18-2002 2:32 AM Wordswordsman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by Wordswordsman, posted 10-21-2002 8:22 PM doctrbill has replied

  
Wordswordsman
Inactive Member


Message 86 of 106 (20423)
10-21-2002 8:22 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by doctrbill
10-19-2002 4:03 PM


Psalm 82:1-8
A Psalm of Asaph.
"God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods. [2] How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah. [3] Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy. [4] Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked. [5] They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course. [6] I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High. [7] But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes. [8] Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations."
The obvious application concerns earthly judges that take bribes, favor the rich, oppress the poor. God is their Judge. God set up governments of men, instituting judges among them, calling them gods. Men gods. Great power, but not so great they are immune from God's judgement.
Jesus quoted that one in John 10:34. He was not refering to deity when he referred to plural gods. It wasn't anywhere in the idea. Wise up. He was reminding the Pharisees, priests, etc, that GOD had called them gods in that Scripture, in the context of men of power, of judgment, not deity. Now if men could be called gods, why would it be so heretical for the Son of God to claim deity?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by doctrbill, posted 10-19-2002 4:03 PM doctrbill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by Mister Pamboli, posted 10-21-2002 9:41 PM Wordswordsman has replied
 Message 94 by doctrbill, posted 10-22-2002 9:17 PM Wordswordsman has not replied
 Message 95 by doctrbill, posted 10-22-2002 9:20 PM Wordswordsman has not replied
 Message 97 by doctrbill, posted 10-22-2002 9:28 PM Wordswordsman has not replied

  
Mister Pamboli
Member (Idle past 7577 days)
Posts: 634
From: Washington, USA
Joined: 12-10-2001


Message 87 of 106 (20429)
10-21-2002 9:41 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by Wordswordsman
10-21-2002 8:22 PM


ws, your last post is totally irrelevant to the previous posts in the threads. Most will grant that in the verses you quoted, Jesus refers to men who set themselves up as Gods. So what? It does nothing to show that in the numerous examples quoted by drbill and others, plural gods are not referred to in the sense of deities.
Logic escapes your grasp again.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by Wordswordsman, posted 10-21-2002 8:22 PM Wordswordsman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by Wordswordsman, posted 10-22-2002 7:10 AM Mister Pamboli has replied

  
Wordswordsman
Inactive Member


Message 88 of 106 (20464)
10-22-2002 6:59 AM
Reply to: Message 83 by John
10-19-2002 12:54 PM


quote:
Originally posted by Wordswordsman:
Elohim refers to human judges who had power of life and death in their hands, with no recourse but to accept their judgments. They were "as" gods, subject only to the God of judges.
quote:
This makes no sense in context, WS.
The Bible doesn't acknowledge any other real god than the one true God. The one true God doesn't acknowledge any other god of men as real. They are all false gods. Bible scholars are almost universally agreed on that. The condusion is due to pantheists trying to justify many gods by misuse of the Hebrew elohim. Here's an excerpt from the Catholic Encyclopedia, a rather complete rendering of the word that is in agreement with all the Bible dictionaries and references I have:
"If we have recourse to the use of the word Elohim in the study of its meaning, we find that in its proper sense it denotes either the true God or false gods, and metaphorically it is applied to judges, angels, and kings; and even accompanies other nouns, giving them a superlative meaning. The presence of the article, the singular construction of the word, and its context show with sufficient clearness whether it must be taken in its proper or its metaphorical sense, and what is its precise meaning in each case. Kautzsch (Encyclopaedia Biblica, III, 3324, n. 2) endeavours to do away with the metaphorical sense of Elohim. Instead of the rendering "judges" he suggests the translation "God", as witness of a lawsuit, as giver of decisions on points of law, or as dispenser of oracles; for the rendering "angels" he substitutes "the gods of the heathen", which, in later post-exilic times, fell to a lower rank. But this interpretation is not supported by solid proof." CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Elohim
If you remain confused about the uses of the word, try http://www.bibleprophet.com/Doctrine/ABC030.html
There is the pantheistic view of many gods like the one true God, then there is the Judeo/Christian view of only: The one (plural:three-person) God is Elohim; the heavenly accompanyment of the One God- angels, other created beings; men with powers of gods permitted by the One God- judges. Nowhere in the Bible does any other being emerge as credible as being a god other than Jehovah. Any attempt by men to promote any other god met with total failure, as when the prophets of Baal tried to conjure up Baal in the face of Elijah's challenge. No god ever once has sttod before the One true God. People attracted to Greek mythology can't seem to appreciate that fact, insisting somehow other gods are acknowledged in the Bible. They will have to settle for Homer's imaginations.
quote:
WS:There was no mention of any other god, or any hint there was a god or gods the Lord competes with.
[quote]It is funny that you respond to the mention of other Gods in the Bible by denying that other Gods are mentioned in the Bible.[quote] There are many references to many false gods of men, in contrast to the only living, true God. Idols were a reality, though not true gods. Nobody could deny stone and wood idols existed, but the true God denies they represent any true being.
quote:
WS:That verse means the Eternal your Creator is the Creator of creators, the Sovereign of sovereigns, the Strong One, the Mighty One, the Fearful One, who champions the cause of the fatherless and widows without respect of persons.
quote:
Sure it does. But you left out the part about "God of Gods". It is a throwback to a pantheistic past.
It is merely one of the failures of the English language. It is impossible to substitute one English word (god) to suitably render the full meaning and use of elohim. Among the learned the use is implied, taken for granted, understood. This is one reason for early objections to the Bible being offered in English, rather than in more scholarly languages such as Latin and French. One must go to the Hebrew scholars to determine its proper meaning, though the Christian concept of the triune godhead is lost there.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by John, posted 10-19-2002 12:54 PM John has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by John, posted 10-23-2002 4:40 PM Wordswordsman has not replied

  
Wordswordsman
Inactive Member


Message 89 of 106 (20466)
10-22-2002 7:10 AM
Reply to: Message 87 by Mister Pamboli
10-21-2002 9:41 PM


quote:
Originally posted by Mister Pamboli:
ws, your last post is totally irrelevant to the previous posts in the threads. Most will grant that in the verses you quoted, Jesus refers to men who set themselves up as Gods. So what? It does nothing to show that in the numerous examples quoted by drbill and others, plural gods are not referred to in the sense of deities.
Logic escapes your grasp again.

I would suggest you try finding a bona fide Jewish Hebrew scholar who has gone on record as interpreting elohim as an acknowledgement of actual living beings qualified as gods like their god Jehovah, sitting equal to Him in some cosmic courtroom. I am not aware of any. This whole discussion is over whether the Bible, especially the KJV, teaches such a thing. It isn't there. Pantheists use poor exegesis to make that case. There is only one God, but many false, non-living, powerless, fruitless gods men adore.
I never claimed what you appear to claim. I have maintained the narrow use of the word Elohim as to not once refer to a group of deity other than the triune godhead, which is the One God. Pantheists here take it too far, that the word gives place for the existence of many gods, as in Greek mythology. There are none. They are all objects of fantasy. The true God is reality.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by Mister Pamboli, posted 10-21-2002 9:41 PM Mister Pamboli has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by John, posted 10-22-2002 9:48 AM Wordswordsman has not replied
 Message 91 by Mister Pamboli, posted 10-22-2002 11:43 AM Wordswordsman has replied
 Message 93 by doctrbill, posted 10-22-2002 9:07 PM Wordswordsman has not replied

  
John
Inactive Member


Message 90 of 106 (20480)
10-22-2002 9:48 AM
Reply to: Message 89 by Wordswordsman
10-22-2002 7:10 AM


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Wordswordsman:
[B]I would suggest you try finding a bona fide Jewish Hebrew scholar who has gone on record as interpreting elohim as an acknowledgement of actual living beings qualified as gods like their god Jehovah, sitting equal to Him in some cosmic courtroom./b][/quote]
You challenge us to find a bona fide scholar who believes in the exclusive divinity of the OT biblical God and who will go on record as saying that there are other gods like JHVH? Do you not see the absurdity in that request?
There are bona fide scholars of ancient Hebrew mythology who will go on record as saying exactly that, but you must eliminate those a priori with the wording of you request. Truly the mark of idiocy.
The issue, as I see it, is not whether those who actually wrote the Bible believed in one God. They probably did. The issue is that the language and mythology betrays a pantheistic past which does not conform to the story told in the OT.
quote:
This whole discussion is over whether the Bible, especially the KJV, teaches such a thing.
Really? Once again you are not paying attention.
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