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Author Topic:   If some parts of the Bible can't be trusted how can any of it?
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 106 of 189 (136116)
08-22-2004 1:41 PM
Reply to: Message 101 by ROTB
08-22-2004 3:52 AM


Re: The Bible is the Word of God
The "textus receptus" a.k.a. the received majority Greek New Testament text, along with the translation of the Hebrew to Greek executed circa 250 BC called the Septuagint, are the Word of God.
How can they be the Word of God if they're translations?
What were they before they were translated?
So to answer your question of "which bible", the answer is, the Christian Bible.
But which one?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by ROTB, posted 08-22-2004 3:52 AM ROTB has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 154 by ROTB, posted 08-24-2004 3:17 AM crashfrog has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 107 of 189 (136119)
08-22-2004 1:49 PM
Reply to: Message 105 by ROTB
08-22-2004 1:38 PM


Re: The Bible is the Word of God
Actually, as a Christian that is very familar with the Bible, I can say that none of the quotes you pointed to refered to the founding of Israel.
Prophesies that can only be understood after the fact are not prophesies. They ain't even hindsight.
edited to add:
Prophesy, if it is to have any worth, must clearly inform about something in the future. If it does not predict, then it has no value. If it is so vague that many different things could be seen as fullfilling it, it is of no value.
So my challenge stands. Go through the Bible and point to prophesies that will come true in the second half of 2004 or in 2005.
This message has been edited by jar, 08-22-2004 12:53 PM

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by ROTB, posted 08-22-2004 1:38 PM ROTB has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 111 by ROTB, posted 08-22-2004 2:09 PM jar has replied

  
Coragyps
Member (Idle past 735 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 108 of 189 (136120)
08-22-2004 1:52 PM
Reply to: Message 105 by ROTB
08-22-2004 1:38 PM


Re: The Bible is the Word of God
"The Rise in Major 'Killer' Earthquakes"
Except that the "rise" is not there....just their detection is better, and rising population worldwide can mean more fatalities.
http://neic.usgs.gov/...general/increase_in_earthquakes.html

This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by ROTB, posted 08-22-2004 1:38 PM ROTB has not replied

  
ROTB
Member (Idle past 7144 days)
Posts: 40
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 08-21-2004


Message 109 of 189 (136121)
08-22-2004 2:00 PM
Reply to: Message 103 by Coragyps
08-22-2004 10:40 AM


Re: The Bible is the Word of God
>And the Roman Empire was able to be exalted enough by Jupiter et al. to
>stay a superpower for 500 years or so. Then that scurrilous Constantine
>snuck in Christianity, and here came the Visigoths!
Might seem silly, but the Bible is the history of God's people carrying the message of what God thinks of us, and if I were to say that the Romans were raised up by God to punish Israel who once were the carriers of this message for the crimes of faithlessness and killing the Messiah, I could then bolster this argument by saying ...
1) 1948AD is pointed to in the Old Testament as the year God would re-form Israel as a nation
2) the time we call the 1st century is pointed to by the writings of Daniel and Moses and Haggai and Malachi and the Talmud
3) Romans 11 talks about a remnant of Israel still being under God's protection
So if the Bible says what happens thousands of years before it happens Page not found, and God loves us and wants His message of how to get into heaven promoted, He will ...
1) promote any country that follows him for as long as they do, such as England from 1611 until 1950 (England stopped holding up the Bible as an authority in the 1850's when the evolutionists were not boldly challenged) and the United States from 1776 until now, despite our having kicked the Bible out of public schools in the 1960s and the subsequent elevation of evolutionists to prominent positions, we still have time to turn it around
2) shove down any country that turns it's back on Him, like he did when Israel turned it's back on Him, and when they killed Jesus Christ.
It took England 100 years to go from a world power, to being just an average nation, and all it took was abandoning the Bible as the authority of society.
Page not found shows us that the Bible is the Word of God, because it says what happens thousands of years before it happens. And we can live forever in the presenece of God, if we believe, and follow.
ROTB

This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by Coragyps, posted 08-22-2004 10:40 AM Coragyps has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 110 by crashfrog, posted 08-22-2004 2:08 PM ROTB has replied
 Message 113 by Coragyps, posted 08-22-2004 2:28 PM ROTB has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 110 of 189 (136122)
08-22-2004 2:08 PM
Reply to: Message 109 by ROTB
08-22-2004 2:00 PM


Re: The Bible is the Word of God
and when they killed Jesus Christ.
I thought that was supposed to happen, though. How can that be a bad thing? It's the source of all our salvation or whatever, isn't it?
How can you fault Israel for doing what it took to guarantee salvation for all persons forever?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by ROTB, posted 08-22-2004 2:00 PM ROTB has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 116 by ROTB, posted 08-22-2004 9:07 PM crashfrog has not replied

  
ROTB
Member (Idle past 7144 days)
Posts: 40
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 08-21-2004


Message 111 of 189 (136123)
08-22-2004 2:09 PM
Reply to: Message 107 by jar
08-22-2004 1:49 PM


Re: The Bible is the Word of God
>Prophesy, if it is to have any worth, must clearly inform about
>something in the future. If it does not predict, then it has no value.
>If it is so vague that many different things could be seen as
>fullfilling it, it is of no value.
>So my challenge stands. Go through the Bible and point to prophesies
>that will come true in the second half of 2004 or in 2005.
The premise of your challenge is faulty, since Isaac Newton predicted before his death in 1727 that the state of Israel would be re formed.
ROTB

This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by jar, posted 08-22-2004 1:49 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 112 by jar, posted 08-22-2004 2:13 PM ROTB has replied
 Message 114 by ramoss, posted 08-22-2004 3:18 PM ROTB has replied
 Message 115 by lfen, posted 08-22-2004 4:46 PM ROTB has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 112 of 189 (136124)
08-22-2004 2:13 PM
Reply to: Message 111 by ROTB
08-22-2004 2:09 PM


On Prophesy.
How is a prophesy that can only be understood after the fact of use?
This message has been edited by jar, 08-22-2004 01:16 PM

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by ROTB, posted 08-22-2004 2:09 PM ROTB has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 117 by ROTB, posted 08-22-2004 9:17 PM jar has replied

  
Coragyps
Member (Idle past 735 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 113 of 189 (136125)
08-22-2004 2:28 PM
Reply to: Message 109 by ROTB
08-22-2004 2:00 PM


Re: The Bible is the Word of God
It took England 100 years to go from a world power, to being just an average nation, and all it took was abandoning the Bible as the authority of society.
Oh. That's "all it took," huh? Fascinating.
I claim that England was the instrument raised up by Shiva to chastise the Hindus, and after they'd been chastised them enough, He shucked England off like a used paper towel. I don't think you can support your view any better than I can mine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by ROTB, posted 08-22-2004 2:00 PM ROTB has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 119 by ROTB, posted 08-22-2004 9:36 PM Coragyps has replied

  
ramoss
Member (Idle past 612 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 114 of 189 (136131)
08-22-2004 3:18 PM
Reply to: Message 111 by ROTB
08-22-2004 2:09 PM


Re: The Bible is the Word of God
Actually, it hasn't reformed. .. not like the bible said it should.
Israel is a secular state. It is not a monarchy , that has the temple as it center, and the Torah as it's basis.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by ROTB, posted 08-22-2004 2:09 PM ROTB has replied

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lfen
Member (Idle past 4678 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 115 of 189 (136136)
08-22-2004 4:46 PM
Reply to: Message 111 by ROTB
08-22-2004 2:09 PM


Re: The Bible is the Word of God
The premise of your challenge is faulty, since Isaac Newton predicted before his death in 1727 that the state of Israel would be re formed.
Whaaaaat? Newton prophesied what where? His writings are not part of the Bible.
You were talking about bibical prophesy correct? Citing something about Newton has no relationship to Jar's premise. If you can show that it does then please do so explicitly. A bald statement that the premise is false and citing a non sequiter does nothing to help your case.
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by ROTB, posted 08-22-2004 2:09 PM ROTB has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 123 by ROTB, posted 08-22-2004 10:23 PM lfen has replied

  
ROTB
Member (Idle past 7144 days)
Posts: 40
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 08-21-2004


Message 116 of 189 (136166)
08-22-2004 9:07 PM
Reply to: Message 110 by crashfrog
08-22-2004 2:08 PM


Re: The Bible is the Word of God
>I thought that was supposed to happen, though. How can that be a bad
>thing?
Correct. It was written in the Old Testament that the Messiah would be killed. Please see http://www.messiahrevealed.org/rejected.html for a partial list.
>It's the source of all our salvation or whatever, isn't it?
Correct. Please see http://www.messiahrevealed.org/salvation.html for a partial list.
But you also have to follow and obey.
If ye continue in my word, [then] are ye my disciples indeed
John 8:31
If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.
John 8:51
By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
1 Corinthians 15:2
If you're wondering how to obey, you need the Holy Spirit.
[This] I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.
Galatians 5:16
If you're wondering how to get the Holy Spirit, you ask for it.
If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?
Luke 11:13
>How can you fault Israel for doing what it took to guarantee
>salvation for all persons forever?
Just because God can say what happens before it happens, does not absolve us of responsibility when we choose to do sin. In Acts 3 Peter accuses onlooking Jews of delivering Jesus up to be murdered, but he also says that it was foretold by the prophets.
Christ even said it Himself:
Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power [at all] against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.
John 19:11
The Romans, namely Pontius Pilate, also had a chance to stop it, but he passed it up because it was the easy thing to do.
But even though we are tempted by the devil and our flesh, and we are imperfect, God did the grandest thing ever...he paid the debt of our sins in full.
All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
Isaiah 53:6
All we have to do is admit we are imperfect, that we are flawed, that we have done much to ruin the world and not build it up, and apologize for our selfish, deliberate, mistakes to God, and ask Jesus to send His Holy Spirit, and then to follow Him by reading the Bible, and praying, and seeking to obey the Word of God.
ROTB

This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by crashfrog, posted 08-22-2004 2:08 PM crashfrog has not replied

Replies to this message:
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ROTB
Member (Idle past 7144 days)
Posts: 40
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 08-21-2004


Message 117 of 189 (136168)
08-22-2004 9:17 PM
Reply to: Message 112 by jar
08-22-2004 2:13 PM


Re: On Prophesy.
>How is a prophesy that can only be understood after the fact of use?
Isaac Newton, who lived in the late 1600s and early 1700s, read the bible daily. You may also be familiar with his work in Calculus and Physics. I remember reading that he posited that one day a nation of Israel would be re born, as in, their punishment as outlined in Page not found would come to an end, and the land we know as Israel, would be open for the Jewish people to return to.
Newton did not delve into this area as much as he did into the book of Daniel. The mathematical calculation that allows us to see that God's word points to 1948 as the year Israel would be a Jewish state, and 1967 pointing to the recapture of Jerusalem, was discovered in 1988.
People who believe in God, and know the Word of God, know when they hear God, so prophecy is of use to them before the fact. After the fact, when the prophecy comes true as said by God, is when unbelievers may consider if they have witnessed the Word of God or not, and then hopefully realize they are imperfect, selfish, sinners who have done much to ruin the world, and not build it up.
Hopefully they will.
ROTB

This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by jar, posted 08-22-2004 2:13 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 118 by jar, posted 08-22-2004 9:36 PM ROTB has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 118 of 189 (136173)
08-22-2004 9:36 PM
Reply to: Message 117 by ROTB
08-22-2004 9:17 PM


Re: On Prophesy.
Sorry, but you did not answer the question.
What good is a prophesy that can only be understood after the fact?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by ROTB, posted 08-22-2004 9:17 PM ROTB has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 120 by ROTB, posted 08-22-2004 9:57 PM jar has replied

  
ROTB
Member (Idle past 7144 days)
Posts: 40
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 08-21-2004


Message 119 of 189 (136174)
08-22-2004 9:36 PM
Reply to: Message 113 by Coragyps
08-22-2004 2:28 PM


Re: The Bible is the Word of God
>Oh. That's "all it took," huh? Fascinating.
We in the USA are in about the 40th year of the authority of the Word of God being trashed. If you think corruption, fighting, lying, greed, and whorishness are bad now, it will get much worse.
School shootings did not happen until the 1990s. People were commonly virgins until marriage, but now 8000 people get sexually transmitted diseases each day in the USA. In the 1950s, American cars were the best in the world. Welfare, invented in the 1960s, has created a semi-permanent underclass. Illegal immigration was not an issue.
>I claim that England was the instrument raised up by Shiva to
>chastise the Hindus, and after they'd been chastised them enough, He
>shucked England off like a used paper towel. I don't think you can
>support your view any better than I can mine.
God judges more severely those who know who He is, and then turn their back on Him, than those who simply do evil without knowing Him. With this premise:
1) I read in Grant Jeffrey's bookThe Signature of God that England started to cast off the authority of the Word of God in the 1850s in the face of the evolutionist onslaught. The pastors did not meet this head on, without compromise. History tells us that the Empire of England started collapsing around the 1890s, and was largely finished around the 1950s.
2) The Bible says what happens thousands of years before it happens. As summarized in Page not found. Therefore, since man cannot do this, we know the Bible is the Word of God. So when the character of God is revealed in the Old Testament as a God that judges un-righteous nations by allowing their enemies to prosper, and as a God that raises righeous nations to the high places of the earth, we can determine with good certainty that a) England started on the path of not believing God in the 1850s b) They had become an average nation by the 1950s c) The Word of God has been proven true again.
ROTB

This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by Coragyps, posted 08-22-2004 2:28 PM Coragyps has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 121 by Coragyps, posted 08-22-2004 9:57 PM ROTB has replied

  
ROTB
Member (Idle past 7144 days)
Posts: 40
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 08-21-2004


Message 120 of 189 (136178)
08-22-2004 9:57 PM
Reply to: Message 118 by jar
08-22-2004 9:36 PM


Re: On Prophesy.
>What good is a prophesy that can only be understood after the fact?
I'll try again. Thank you for your patience!
I don't think people read the Bible for thousands of years, while not understanding God's promises about the time God would allow the Jewish people to return to Israel. I suspect they never bothered to check the accuracy of the Word of God. Grant Jeffrey tried to check the accuracy of it in 1988, and was rewarded.
So it was not that nobody understood it until 1988, nobody checked it. Isaac Newton knew that Israel would be a Jewish state again, just by reading the Bible, but did not bother checking it.
Page not found lays it out very clearly.
If you understand how I am missing the gist of your question, please help me.
ROTB

This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by jar, posted 08-22-2004 9:36 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 122 by jar, posted 08-22-2004 10:02 PM ROTB has replied

  
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