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Author Topic:   Exodus Part Two: Population of the Exodus Group.
Juraikken
Member (Idle past 6188 days)
Posts: 82
From: Winnetka, CA
Joined: 11-13-2006


Message 91 of 142 (395554)
04-16-2007 11:05 PM
Reply to: Message 89 by ringo
04-16-2007 10:11 PM


Re: God not being bright?
ringo writes:
My point was that you were dead wrong about the children of Israel being poor. Makes you look like you've never even read the Bible.
my point was for the population not the richness of the people, but anyway you proved me wrong on that
ringo writes:
But lets get to the population.
please lets lol
ringo writes:
We have a fairly clear description of the tabernacle and its paraphernalia. If we assume that it's historically accurate, can we use that description to estimate how many people would be required to carry the tabernacle? If so, can we use that estimate to further estimate the size of the entire group?
to answer your question: yes and no. is it possible that a form of crate was created to carry this tabernacle? istead of only people carrying it? that would lessen the number of people
or how heavy is it?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by ringo, posted 04-16-2007 10:11 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by ringo, posted 04-17-2007 12:25 AM Juraikken has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 92 of 142 (395565)
04-17-2007 12:25 AM
Reply to: Message 91 by Juraikken
04-16-2007 11:05 PM


Juraikken writes:
my point was for the population not the richness of the people....
Maybe I would have gotten that point if you had actually mentioned the population.
The problem we have with trying to estimate the population is that we have nothing to work with. It has been pointed out that there is not a shred of evidence that anybody escaped from Egypt to Canaan.
If there was a vast cleanup/coverup, that just works against you. Archaeological evidence of campsites, etc. would at least give us a basis to start from. With no evidence that it happened, we can only look at whether or not it could have happened.
So we're left with the questions in the OP:
quote:
1. Is the 2-3 million a realistic number?
2. Does the Bible really claim this enormous population growth?

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by Juraikken, posted 04-16-2007 11:05 PM Juraikken has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by Juraikken, posted 04-17-2007 1:08 AM ringo has not replied

  
Juraikken
Member (Idle past 6188 days)
Posts: 82
From: Winnetka, CA
Joined: 11-13-2006


Message 93 of 142 (395587)
04-17-2007 1:08 AM
Reply to: Message 92 by ringo
04-17-2007 12:25 AM


ringo writes:
The problem we have with trying to estimate the population is that we have nothing to work with. It has been pointed out that there is not a shred of evidence that anybody escaped from Egypt to Canaan.
population number problem: have you counted Deaths? have you counted people who left? have you considered how they numbered people? meaning did they include children and/or women in teh count?
evidence problem: there simply is no evidence at all correct? but then if the bible has this big of a claim it has to have some sort of accuracy. was there such a man named...i forgot the Pharohs name...etc.
lets see all the facts that we know ARE true that are shown in the bible about the whole exodus moving thing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by ringo, posted 04-17-2007 12:25 AM ringo has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by Nighttrain, posted 04-17-2007 7:32 AM Juraikken has not replied
 Message 96 by jar, posted 04-17-2007 11:49 AM Juraikken has replied
 Message 98 by nator, posted 04-19-2007 7:41 AM Juraikken has not replied

  
RickJB
Member (Idle past 4990 days)
Posts: 917
From: London, UK
Joined: 04-14-2006


Message 94 of 142 (395617)
04-17-2007 5:57 AM
Reply to: Message 90 by Juraikken
04-16-2007 11:01 PM


Re: God not being bright?
Juraukken writes:
...but bones wouldnt be preserved, let alone 200 years ago compared to 3000 years ago.
Depending on the evironment bone can easily be preserved for these amounts of time. Also you are forgetting about metallic/mineral evidence such as weapons, jewellery or other artifacts...
Notable historical events always leave traces of some sort, unless you are suggesting that the entire field of Archeology is an illusion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by Juraikken, posted 04-16-2007 11:01 PM Juraikken has not replied

  
Nighttrain
Member (Idle past 3994 days)
Posts: 1512
From: brisbane,australia
Joined: 06-08-2004


Message 95 of 142 (395629)
04-17-2007 7:32 AM
Reply to: Message 93 by Juraikken
04-17-2007 1:08 AM


evidence problem: there simply is no evidence at all correct? but then if the bible has this big of a claim it has to have some sort of accuracy. was there such a man named...i forgot the Pharohs name...etc.
Don`t worry about forgetting the Pharoah`s name--the author of Exodus(whoever she was) did too. :-p
Edited by Nighttrain, : clarification of gender

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by Juraikken, posted 04-17-2007 1:08 AM Juraikken has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 96 of 142 (395681)
04-17-2007 11:49 AM
Reply to: Message 93 by Juraikken
04-17-2007 1:08 AM


Big Claims
evidence problem: there simply is no evidence at all correct?
Correct.
Science works by making predictions. For example:
If there was a Hebrew population of several millions in Egypt during the period there would be certain signs such as:
  • broken religious objects or religious writings or graffiti.
  • indications in homes such as wall paintings or religious layout.
  • mention of such a people in official documents.
No such evidence exists.
But, as you said, such evidence might have been covered up. Can we detect such things?
Well, yes. For example we know of many such attempts to cover things and the attempts always leave evidence. We know for example when different Pharaohs tried to eliminate references to earlier Pharaohs.
We also find lots of evidence in Middens, old trash dumps.
but then if the bible has this big of a claim it has to have some sort of accuracy.
Not really. Jack and the Bean Stalk makes big claims. Would you say it is accurate that a bean stalk could grow all the way up to a cloud that has a Giants Castle in it?
was there such a man named...i forgot the Pharohs name...etc.
You didn't forget it. The tale in the Bible never mentions it.
lets see all the facts that we know ARE true that are shown in the bible about the whole exodus moving thing
That is the problem. There are zero such facts.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by Juraikken, posted 04-17-2007 1:08 AM Juraikken has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by Juraikken, posted 04-19-2007 6:31 AM jar has replied

  
Juraikken
Member (Idle past 6188 days)
Posts: 82
From: Winnetka, CA
Joined: 11-13-2006


Message 97 of 142 (396209)
04-19-2007 6:31 AM
Reply to: Message 96 by jar
04-17-2007 11:49 AM


Re: Big Claims
lets say that the information IS hidden, do you think there would be a motive behind that?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by jar, posted 04-17-2007 11:49 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by Nighttrain, posted 04-20-2007 8:59 PM Juraikken has not replied
 Message 100 by jar, posted 04-20-2007 9:07 PM Juraikken has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 98 of 142 (396218)
04-19-2007 7:41 AM
Reply to: Message 93 by Juraikken
04-17-2007 1:08 AM


quote:
but then if the bible has this big of a claim it has to have some sort of accuracy.
Why does it "have to"?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by Juraikken, posted 04-17-2007 1:08 AM Juraikken has not replied

  
Nighttrain
Member (Idle past 3994 days)
Posts: 1512
From: brisbane,australia
Joined: 06-08-2004


Message 99 of 142 (396563)
04-20-2007 8:59 PM
Reply to: Message 97 by Juraikken
04-19-2007 6:31 AM


Re: Big Claims
Hey, Jura, that you posting over at Infidels as Larsguy47? He has the clean-up bug, too, after the Exodus.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by Juraikken, posted 04-19-2007 6:31 AM Juraikken has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 100 of 142 (396565)
04-20-2007 9:07 PM
Reply to: Message 97 by Juraikken
04-19-2007 6:31 AM


Re: Big Claims
lets say that the information IS hidden, do you think there would be a motive behind that?
So far you have offered no model of how it could be hidden.
Nor have you addressed any of the other things in Message 96.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by Juraikken, posted 04-19-2007 6:31 AM Juraikken has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 101 of 142 (396566)
04-20-2007 9:28 PM


Bottom Line On Exodus
The bottom line is if you add up all the coroborating evidence to the Biblical Exodus record you have enough to provide a significant amount of evidence that the event occurred. As for the population, there's a lot of speculation on both sides of the debate. I go with the corroborating evidence of the debris in the Nuweiba sandbar in the Gulf of Aqaba and the other coroborating evidence in the region including the significant split rock with dried up waterway, the Mt Sinai burnt top mountain, et al, et al and all in accordance with scripture.
I know this thread is not about this coroborating evidence. My point is that we shouldn't be too disturbed by the problems regarding the population when this will likely not ever be resolved. Imo either the figures are off some how or that the condition of the hard working slaves was such that they were well able to do the feat that the larger number calls for. These people were physically fit for a robust journey. They were given a good head start and there was ample area at the beachhead at Nuweiba to accomodate a large number of people. Also the topographical terrain of the beachhead at Aqaba was precisely as what the Bible describes for entraping the host of migrants. No other site fits the ticket.

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by jar, posted 04-20-2007 9:34 PM Buzsaw has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 102 of 142 (396567)
04-20-2007 9:34 PM
Reply to: Message 101 by Buzsaw
04-20-2007 9:28 PM


Re: Bottom Line On Exodus
The bottom line is if you add up all the coroborating evidence to the Biblical Exodus record you have enough to provide a significant amount of evidence that the event occurred. As for the population, there's a lot of speculation on both sides of the debate. I go with the corroborating evidence of the debris in the Nuweiba sandbar in the Gulf of Aqaba and the other coroborating evidence in the region including the significant split rock with dried up waterway, the Mt Sinai burnt top mountain, et al, et al and all in accordance with scripture.
You have been claiming that for years Buz. Is there any chance that some day you will actually present any of that alleged evidence?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by Buzsaw, posted 04-20-2007 9:28 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by Buzsaw, posted 04-20-2007 10:27 PM jar has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 103 of 142 (396575)
04-20-2007 10:27 PM
Reply to: Message 102 by jar
04-20-2007 9:34 PM


Re: Bottom Line On Exodus
Jar writes:
You have been claiming that for years Buz. Is there any chance that some day you will actually present any of that alleged evidence?
LOL Jar. None of it that I and others have produced have ever penetrated the hard shell in which your understanding resides one iota. It's out there for all who wish to observe objectively.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by jar, posted 04-20-2007 9:34 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 104 by jar, posted 04-20-2007 10:46 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 104 of 142 (396576)
04-20-2007 10:46 PM
Reply to: Message 103 by Buzsaw
04-20-2007 10:27 PM


The Bottom Line On the Exodus is that it never happened as described in the Bible.
Buzsaw writes:
LOL Jar. None of it that I and others have produced have ever penetrated the hard shell in which your understanding resides one iota. It's out there for all who wish to observe objectively.
So once again, the Bottom Line on the Exodus is that you have NO evidence to present.
This is the classic pattern of the Biblical Exodus supporters. They allege evidence but have NEVER presented any evidence that has stood up to examination.
There is a pattern here, just as with the Biblical Creationists. Make claims but never supply support.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by Buzsaw, posted 04-20-2007 10:27 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
John Williams
Member (Idle past 4999 days)
Posts: 157
From: Oregon, US
Joined: 06-29-2004


Message 105 of 142 (396687)
04-21-2007 6:26 PM


Exodus Myth
Objective science tells us that millions of Hebrew migrating from Egypt to Canaan, is clearly exaggeration--and should not be taken literally, but the general theme is historically accurate.
Egypt in 2007, has an estimated population of 83 million. New Kingdom Egypt, over 3,000 years ago, had an estimated population of between 3 and 4 million. Canaan at this time may have fluctuated around 100,000 to perhaps 300,000 during the early iron age.
The Hebrew Exodus myth does have enough historical earmarks which do pinpoint it's origins to a rather broad but traceable period of the Imperial New Kingdom era of Egypt.
The key is to find out how many recorded expulsions and migrations of foreigners occurred during this era of Egyptian history, between 1600 and 1000 BC. and to find what parallels between these migrations and the Exodus story.
Earliest opinion suggests the Hyksos era as the first historical setting for the exodus narrative. We have Asiatics settling in the eastern branch of the Nile Delta and ruling from Avaris (near Ramses, later called the region of Geshem) for 100 years. The subsequent warfare and then deportations of these Asiatics from the Delta to Syria-Canaan over a period of several years, and the liberation of Egypt through the pharaoh Amose, does seem compelling evidence for an early exodus tradition among the Canaanites.
But there is also evidence of perhaps smaller scale, more gradual migrations and influx between Asiatics and Egypt during the Imperial and Rameside era. Thousands of war captives were allegedly taken to Egypt from Canaan and Syria between 1500 and 1200 BC. among these were Epiru and Shosu, likely central highland ancestors of the later Hebrews, Judaeans, and Edomites.
The Hebrew exodus story is a condensed, essentially Canaanite version of the general warfare, occupation, enslavement, and deportations by Egyptians during their Imperial expansion under four-hundred years of tough rule, beginning with the Hyksos expulsion, of whom the later Israelites seem to identify as their ancestors.
In conclusion, there may have been essentially, several large migrations of Asiatics from Egypt to Canaan during this long period, but none is known to have been as large and politically influential as the exodus migration of the Hyksos dynasty, and the abandonment of Avaris, a metropolis once housing 100,000 people.
The largest numbers involved with the Hyksos migrations from Egypt to Southern Canaan were probably gradual and over a period of several years. The abandonment of Avaris though, may have included many thousands at a time, and were possibly escorted by Egyptian garrisons --to ensure that they did not escape into the wilderness of the Negev and Sinai.

Replies to this message:
 Message 108 by IamJoseph, posted 07-03-2007 6:35 AM John Williams has replied

  
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