Some Specific Biblical Prophecies

Wow, how the hell can you say this when you avoided both of my posts to you?I didn't say the same old yada. Neither does my ideology hinge on whether any or all of the prohecies come true... other than the last one I guess which will clash with some of my temporary interests.Every thread buz, you do this on every thread...------------------
holmes

Not sure if you'll reply, but Buz, this one is for you,When did these signs begin to be fulfilled? vs. 28 says that when these things begin to take place redemption is near and further on it states the generation issue. If the generation (general definition) that begins to see these things will not pass until all of these things take place...how long are you saying it has taken for these things to take place? When did this take place? How does discussing "century after century after century" equate with discussing the "generation which sees these things begin to happen" not passing away before all is fulfilled?Later on in the thread you talk about the Six Day War and a "generation" of 70 or so years from this war. Isn't the beginning of your prophesy the Jews being taken from Jeruselem? When do you place this event? Taking your 70 year generation, when would that place the end of the prophesy?You aren't consistent in your claim.------------------
Asgara
"An unexamined life is not worth living" Socrates via Plato

quote:

---

It is obvious from the context that Jesus could not have meant his own generation.

---

Actually, after reading Luke chp 21 I'll describe what is "obvious" to me. It was clearly written after 70 CE when Jerusalem fell to the Romans. The early Christians, still mostly a sub-sect of Judaism, had experienced persecution from their fellow Jews, who refused to recognize Jesus as the Messiah, and now, with the destruction of the temple, the entire center of the Judaic religion was gone. Luke (or actually Mark since it is believe that this portion of the Gospels originated with Mark) had two tasks; explain the persecution of the Christians and the destruction of the temple by writing a prophecy after the fact, thereby showing that it's all part of God's plan, and promising that things will be better in the end; namely that Judaism will be restored, but with Jesus as the Messiah.Luke chp 21 seems to fit a classic pattern that one can notice in some millenial cults, namely that past and current disasters are claimed to be part of "the plan", sometimes by "predicting" them after the fact, and a promise of a better future is offered.

No, The reason why the 3 records are different is because it is from 3 different apostles. There is nothing more to it. It does not originate with any of the others they all have a slightly different record but all are accountable. What you do is this, read them all and then you have seen the BIG picture.Might I add this though -
You would have to read chapter 19 for previouse history.In the begining of 19 it shows that the savior was in the temple denouncing the
Pharacies. then in 20 we see that he is on his way out of the temple and he sees the rich casting
in there riches into the treasury and he saw a opre women doing the same he spoke about her
for a minute then he and his desciples were looking at the temple builds. (I would say from
the surroundings nothing has happend, jarusalem is still standing, that is the intro to the
prophesy because he is looking at the stone temples and then goes on to say that not one stone
shalt be left upon another, this is the first prophesy then the disciples go into asking him about
when this shalt take place and also when shalt the end of the world take place.
so it is clear that this took place BEFORE the destruction.-Quizp.s. According to Josephus the Temple and Jarusalem fell in 70ad way after Jesus ascended. Jesus was still teaching his Apostles in "Luke" so it is a valid prophesy.[This message has been edited by Quiz, 10-22-2003]

Oh jeez. It's too bad you weren't here for this discussion.We established a while ago that three of the gospels plagiarize the hell out of each other and still manage to contradict. If you want to get into that one, you'd better be prepared, because all the ammo has been dug up and aimed right at you.

show me the money

Lets take it to another thread please.------------------
AdminAsgara
Queen of the Universe

here's a start:
http://EvC Forum: Luke and Matthews geneologies -->EvC Forum: Luke and Matthews geneologiesI believe, incidentally, that it's the thread that spawned this one, and maybe the Trinity discussion too. It's still fairly fresh - less than a week since last post.[This message has been edited by zephyr, 10-22-2003]

Thanks-Quiz

Asgara, I believe I addressed this in post 86 n response to Dan. Anyhow I shouldn't have let this thread get derailed with the generation thing anyhow because regardless of the generation time, the prophecy was fulfilled with the gentile nations out of the city after the Jews were dispersed to the nations. The generation statement had little bearing on the fulfilling of the prophecy of the thread.

(my apologies for posting under the wrong name...don't tell the Queen or she will be angry with me)

​

I read some rambling about the fig tree budding and end times....

​

How does this tie into what you posted in your first message and in message 14, "the generation that sees these things begin to happen", your comment about centuries and centuries and centuries, and your 70 year generation from the Six Day War.

​

If the generation that sees these things "begin" to happen is the generation that will not pass before all things are fulfilled, how long is this generation?? When did the events in your prophesy "begin" to happen? When were the Jews taken out of Jeruselem? You yourself stated that the prophesy was referring to "the generation that sees these things begin to happen". If the generation issue isn't part of the prophesy then what is it? An educated guess? A lie? A mistake?

​

I don't see how you can claim that this isn't part of the prophesy

this will happen
this will happen
this will happen
when you see these things begin to happen the time is near
this generation will not pass until all these things have happened

​

Buz writes:

​

My apologies, Dan. The pages were flipping by so fast that you're post got neglected. You make a logical point, but please note that this generation statement was made during Jesus's parable of the fig tree. The generation was not to pass until after the fig tree budded. The implication here is that the tree does not bud until the end times. The statement was made after those end times were focused in on, including the budding of the fig tree. The land of Palestine was totally barren of trees when the Jews began to move in. They are literally budding as well as the metaphoric end time buds referring to those end time events addressed just prior to the parable.

​

I honestly don't see how the above quote answers my questions.

​

------------------
AdminAsgara
Queen of the Universe

​

[This message has been edited by AdminAsgara, 10-23-2003]

Hi buzsaw,The request in my post was that you and/or Quiz would provide what you understood to be the defining characteristics of the dispensation known as the "times of the Gentiles".Your response:

quote:

---

buzsaw:

​

The "times of the Gentiles" for all practical purposes have indeed ended in the city after scores of centuries of occupation.

---

This actually reduces the prophecy to nothing more than a tautology. IOW, "the Gentiles will trod Jerusalem until they no longer trod Jerusalem".Luke doesn't speak of "practical purposes"; he speaks of a situation (the "trodding" of Jerusalem) that will exist until a specific dispensation has been fulfilled.You insist that we believe that this dispensation came to an end in 1967. Further, when myself and others disagree with this opinion, you not too subtly insinuate that we only disagree because of our evil ulterior motives.And yet, read what some other Christian apologists and conservative bible scholars have to say about the defining characteristics of the "times of the Gentiles":C. I. Scofield, Reference Bible"The Times of the Gentiles is that long period beginning with the Babylonian captivity of Judah, under Nebuchadnezzar, and to be brought to an end by the destruction of Gentile worldpower by the "stone cut out without hands" (Dan 2:34, 35, 44), i.e. the coming of the Lord in glory (Rev 19:11, 21), until which time Jerusalem is politically subject to Gentile rule (Luke 21:24) .". . . . . . . ."The Times of the Gentiles: What and When?" Jim Bramlett"It is probably safe to assume that the term times of the Gentiles is synonymous with what some call the church age, or the age of grace.Israel captured the Temple Mount in 1967 but in a conciliatory diplomatic move gave it up right away to Jordan. Looking back, such a decision seems foolish and unwise, but it must not have been God’s timing for the end of the times of the Gentiles.". . . . .A CHRONOLOGY OF THE "TIMES OF THE GENTILES"
Compiled by Lambert Dolphin"The times of the gentiles begin with Nebuchadnezzar's conquest of Judah. . . . Jerusalem will henceforth be trodden down of the gentiles as the times of the gentiles runs its course between the Babylonian captivity and the end of the great tribulation period.". . . . . . .biblebelievers.org". . . the times of the Gentiles end in the feet of iron and clay where church and state united FORCE the worship of a FALSE 'holy' man, the Pope incarnate by Satan.". . . . . . . .Forbidden"Today, new Jerusalem is in the hands of the Jews, but old Jerusalem is in the hands of the Muslims.In the last half of Luke 21:24 Jesus continued by saying, "and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled."We could paraphrase like this: "Old Jerusalem (which includes the temple mount), will literally be walked on by non-Jews until a set time is completed."Has that time been reached? Obviously not, because people from all nationalities continue to walk upon the temple mount today. ". . . . . . . . ."What Are the "Times of the Gentiles?" William F. Dankenbring" (Daniel's) final week of years is in a very special sense the final fulfillment of the "TIMES OF THE GENTILES" -- And in a very special sense, the REALLY EMPHATIC "Time of the Gentiles" will be the FINAL THREE AND ONE HALF YEARS OF THIS AGE -- THE TIME OF GREAT TRIBULATION!". . . . . . . . ."Prophecy and current events" Michael J. Hopkins"The present time is ripe for the Jews to see their long-awaited hope of a restored temple, priesthood and sacrifices.. . . conclusion, the Times of the Gentiles are drawing to a close. . . ". . . . . . . . .Elijah.com Home-Page"The times of the gentiles, as it pertains to the nation of Israel was fulfilled on the exact day that Israel was reborn as a nation (May 14, 1948).". . . . . . ."A History of the Gentiles" whyprophets.com"We are now living in the tail end of "the times of the Gentiles", when western culture dominates the world.". . . . . . . . ."The Biblical perspective on the times of the Gentiles" http://www.biblicist.org"Many today are teaching that these Gentile "times" ended, or will end, when Israel once again takes total control of Jerusalem, especially the Temple Mount. But the idea that the "times of the Gentiles" began to be "phased out" after June of 1967 does not seem to fit what the "times of the Gentiles" is according to Scripture.When Jesus said that Jerusalem would be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles until the "times of the Gentiles be fulfilled," He did not at all mean until the Jews would again take control of the ancient city of Jerusalem and the Temple Mount from Gentile hands. But instead He was specifically referring to those successive Gentile, political powers revealed by the prophet Daniel, which would have dominion over national Israel starting with Babylon and ending with the revived Roman Empire under Antichrist.. . . . . . . . .WHEN ARE THE "TIMES OF THE GENTILES"? M.F. Blume"So what is the times of the gentiles? Its the period God used Gentile nations to afflict Jerusalem! Daniel's vision of the four gentile kingdoms (not five) spoke of the very same thing! Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece and finally Rome, all afflicted Jerusalem throughout history. But it would end in 70 AD. Those years would be fulfilled in 70 AD.". . . . . . ."The Times of the Gentiles the Restoration of the Kingdom to Israel" Kurt M. Simmons"The personal pronoun ye establishes the time for fulfillment in that generation. This is confirmed by verse 32: Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass till all be fulfilled. So far so good; the sound application of exegetical principles guides us in a correct understanding.(Lk. 21:21-25)Gentile dominion began with the captivity in Babylon and continued for more than 500 years until the destruction of the Jewish state at the close of the Mosaic economy in A.D. 70. The times of the Gentiles expired where the kingdom of Christ began.". . . . . . . .Mormon "Doctrine and Covenants""Christ taught that in that generation when the Gentiles will no longer receive the gospel, "for they perceive not the light, and they turn their hearts from me because of the precepts of men..., the times of the Gentiles [will] be fulfilled." (D&C 45:29.). . . . . . .. .richesinchrist.com"The Book of Daniel puts God's end times program on an amazing time table.The times of the Gentiles (four Gentile kingdoms which will dominate Israel) and 70 weeks (490 years) for Israel.Where in time does all of this leave us? The times of the Gentiles are 4/5s over and 69 of Daniel's 70 weeks have taken place."

quote:

---

Originally posted by buzsaw

​

JESUS'S REMARKABLE PROPHECY FULFILLED TO THE "T" some 19 CENTURIES AFTER THE PROPHECY GIVEN!!

​

So ye skeptical scoffing scholars, sickem!

---

Am I to understand then that you believe Dr. Scofield, etal, to be "skeptical scoffing scholars"?The fact is, a great many Christian scholars believe that the "times of the Gentiles" is a specific dispensation with a much greater significance than the simple tautology which you ascribe to it.If they are right and you are wrong, then 1967 could not have seen the fulfillment of Luke 21:24.At the very minimum, it is glaringly apparent that Christians cannot even agree among themselves about the significance and/or the chronology of this "prophecy".Can you really then, state with absolute certainty that the six-day war marked the end of the "times of the Gentiles"? Or could it be simple hubris that makes you believe that you are the possessor of absolute truth in this and that all who disagree with you are either deceived or merely protecting their evil interests.Namaste'Amlodhi

I dont think it is the end of the this dispensation, I agree that the Jews are established as a nation again. Now they are working on re-building the Temple which is another prophecy. I am not sure what dispensation it is that we are in as to what we call it. But I believe it is the last one.-Quiz

I'm not trying to "underline" [sic] your character.It's just that you are shifting your position and telling untruths. If you don't like that being pointed out then you could try being more honest.Now I've pointed to the evidence already. You have provided none, so I suggest that instead of hypocritically and falsely accusing others of word games that you show a little integrity and produce YOUR evidence. If you have any.

I need the questions laid out once again. I am not playing any word games atleast I am not trying to, if I do it is by mistake.-Quiz