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Author Topic:   Endtime Prophecy and the European Union
caffeine
Member (Idle past 1141 days)
Posts: 1800
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008


Message 126 of 313 (700215)
05-31-2013 8:50 AM
Reply to: Message 113 by jar
05-30-2013 4:23 PM


Re: To Catholic Scientist
Actually try to find out when some of those nations actually came to exist. When did Italy actually become the Nation of Italy?
Well that's a complicated question that hinges around the definition of 'nation'. I think it's safe to say there has never been a Nation of Italy, since the capitalisation implies that this is some sort of official designation, which has never existed. Nowadays it's the Italian Republic.
At the time that Revelation was written, Italy certainly existed. It was a province of the Roman Empire, and Italy also existed in a sense as a nation - in the sense of a shared identity as Italians. Germany and Spain also both existed as geographical concepts to the author of Revelation, and Cyprus was at the time a Roman province too (with the same name).
Not that any of this is relevant, but your post seemed a bit disingenuous to me.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by jar, posted 05-30-2013 4:23 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 127 by jar, posted 05-31-2013 8:55 AM caffeine has replied

  
caffeine
Member (Idle past 1141 days)
Posts: 1800
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008


Message 128 of 313 (700222)
05-31-2013 9:49 AM
Reply to: Message 127 by jar
05-31-2013 8:55 AM


Re: To Catholic Scientist
quote:
Sorry but at the time Revelations was written I doubt anyone identified themselves as Italians or French or Germans or Spanish. There were Franks and Huns and Goths and Romans and many other designations but you are right about Cyprus.
Certainly no one identified themselves as French. German and Spanish I'm not sure - these were exonyms applied by Latin writers, so 2nd-century Germans probably didn't think of themselves as German.
'Italian', though, certainly was in use at the time (or Latin and Greek equivalents, anyway). Book V of Strabo's geography begins thusly:
quote:
After the foothills of the Alps comes the beginning of what is now Italy. For the ancients used to call only Oenotria Italy, although it extended from the Strait of Sicily only as far as the Gulfs of Tarentum and Poseidonia, but the name of Italy prevailed and advanced even as far as the foothills of the Alps, and also took in, not only those parts of Ligustica which extend from the boundaries of Tyrrhenia as far as the Varus River and the sea there, but also those parts of Istria which extend as far as Pola. One might guess that it was because of their prosperity that the people who were the first to be named Italians imparted the name to the neighbouring peoples, and then received further increments in this way until the time of the Roman conquest.
Strabo was writing more than 100 years before the Boof of Revelation was written.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by jar, posted 05-31-2013 8:55 AM jar has replied

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caffeine
Member (Idle past 1141 days)
Posts: 1800
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008


Message 158 of 313 (700530)
06-04-2013 5:00 AM
Reply to: Message 156 by PaulK
06-03-2013 3:03 PM


Re: Europe: land of the antichrist
Oh it's quite clear. You don't have a clue what you're talking about which is why you go on about vague irrelevancies.
To be fair to the other Paul's prophecy, if Revelation is taken to have been written in the time of Domitian, then there were, indeed, five Caesars who had died by violence.
1) Julius Caesar was assassinated 44 BC.
2) Caligula was assassinated 41 AD.
3) Nero supposedly got his friends to help him commit suicide, so as to avoid assassination, in 68 AD.
4) Galba was assassinated by the Praetorian guard a few months later.
5) Otho stabbed himself in the heart the same year.
You may want to add Vitellius, but if we're being pedantic then, according to Suetonius, Vitellius was never actually called Caesar:
quote:
...he very eagerly accepted the cognomen of Germanicus, offered him by the unanimous consent of both armies, but deferred assuming that of Augustus, and refused for ever that of Caesar.
I'm a bit unsure where you're getting the figure of eight from. Are you counting Claudius as being assassinated?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 156 by PaulK, posted 06-03-2013 3:03 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 160 by PaulK, posted 06-04-2013 6:14 AM caffeine has not replied

  
caffeine
Member (Idle past 1141 days)
Posts: 1800
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008


Message 159 of 313 (700531)
06-04-2013 5:11 AM
Reply to: Message 141 by Faith
05-31-2013 7:32 PM


Wasn't this thread about this EU?
Lest it seems that my only contribution to this thread is nitpicking, I have a more substantive question.
The thread is also supposed to focus on the European Union, and many of us believe that is the likely arena through which the power of the final Antichrist to be expressed. There are many interesting symbols connected with the EU that relate it to the Book of Revelation, the Harlot Church that rides the beast for instance.
I've seen similar claims about the symbols connected to the EU throughout this thread but, unless I haven't been paying attention, no one's actually elaborated what they mean. The only offering was the Neighbourhood Policy, which is not a seven-year agreement as claimed; and the fact that only 10 EU powers have vetos, which is untrue.
Different decision-making procedures are used in the European Council for different policy areas. Some things, like foreign policy, require unanimity - meaning everyone has a veto, including Malta. Some policy areas, mostly administrative, require a simple majority of states, meaning no one has a veto. Others require a qualified majority, which means at least 55% of member-states representing at least 65% of the population (with the condition that at least four states are required to vote against something to block it). Again, no one has a veto. The top ten working together could veto anything, but they couldn't pass anything without support. And, for that matter, the three largest plus the smallest are sufficient for a veto.
Any chance you could fill us in on any of these signs of the EU's involvement in the End Days?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by Faith, posted 05-31-2013 7:32 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 161 by Faith, posted 06-04-2013 9:03 AM caffeine has replied

  
caffeine
Member (Idle past 1141 days)
Posts: 1800
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008


Message 174 of 313 (700550)
06-04-2013 11:03 AM
Reply to: Message 161 by Faith
06-04-2013 9:03 AM


Re: Symbolism of the European Union
Thanks for sending some specific answers!
What I was thinking of is the statue of Europa riding a bull outside the building that houses the EU Parliament in Strasbourg and another in front of another EU building in Brussels. Christians immediately recognize this image as "the woman who rides the beast" in the Book of Revelation, who is generally understood to be the Harlot Church, a false worldwide religious system headed by the Vatican.
There is, indeed, a statue of a woman riding a beast in front of the European Parliament. She doesn't quite match the description in Revelation though:
quote:
3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.
4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:
5 And upon her forehead was a name written, Mystery, Babylon The Great, The Mother Of Harlots And Abominations Of The Earth.
The statue is monochrome, the beast has only one head with two horns and the woman is, conspicuously, naked, on account of the fact the bull is kidnapping her to rape her (I've always thought it an odd choice of symbolism to represent the EU, but there you go). She's not wearing any pearls, nor carrying a cup, and nothing is written on her head.
The fact that ten countries are at least foundational to the EU
That's not the case. The original European Coal and Steel Community had 6 members. The European Union had 12 members at it's founding. The only time the EC had 10 members was the five year period between 1981 when Greece joined, and 1986 when Spain and Portugal joined. There is no way I can see to make ten a figure in any way relevant to the European Union. How is Greece foundational but not Spain?
Some time ago I'd noticed that the flag of the Council of Europe is a circle of twelve stars on a blue background which immediately reminded me of the woman in Revelation with a crown of twelve stars and the moon under her feet, and I discovered that the designer of the flag did in fact have her in mind, as I report at my own blog. This is another Roman Catholic symbol as they conceive it.
I'll give you this one. That is, indeed, the same symbol. I'm not sure of the prophetic relevance of an organisation using a symbol they copied from the prophecy. I don't think Revelation talks about someone masquerading as the Virgin Mary.
I found this blog that includes these statues, plus the fact that the main EU building, designed to imitate the Roman Colosseum, reminds Christians of the Tower of Babel -- quite pointedly if you look at the poster this blogger found.
They copied the Colosseum, a symbol of European civilisation. Someone else copied this to make a painting of the Tower of Babel. To the best of my knowledge, the Tower of Babel isn't even mentioned in Revelation, so I'm not sure what significance this has.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 161 by Faith, posted 06-04-2013 9:03 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 175 by Faith, posted 06-04-2013 11:08 AM caffeine has not replied

  
caffeine
Member (Idle past 1141 days)
Posts: 1800
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008


(3)
Message 263 of 313 (701200)
06-13-2013 8:23 AM
Reply to: Message 231 by Faith
06-07-2013 7:54 AM


The woman in Revelation
Look, I never said and none of the people I referenced said that the statue was a replica of the creature in Revelation, it's a simple equation of a woman on a beast with that idea.
But the point we've been trying to make is that it's a stupid connection. It may remind you of the words 'woman riding a beast' but it is clearly not the woman described in Revelation. You can only make a connection if you ignore all of the words describing the woman and the beast.
Now, if I spent all my days rereading Revelation over and over again I could look at this statue and say it reminded me of the woman in Revelation,
simply because it's a woman. And I'd be correct - because I'm obsessed and everything reminds me of something in Revelation. You, however, would be quite correct if you pointed out to me that it clearly has nothing to do with Revelation since the woman in question is not riding a beast. Similarly, we are correct in pointing out to you that, whatever connections your brain makes and regardless of what something reminds you off, the statue of Europa clearly has no connection to Revelation, since it is not at all like the description in Revelation in any respect.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 231 by Faith, posted 06-07-2013 7:54 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 268 by Faith, posted 06-14-2013 3:23 AM caffeine has replied

  
caffeine
Member (Idle past 1141 days)
Posts: 1800
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008


Message 269 of 313 (701215)
06-14-2013 4:16 AM
Reply to: Message 268 by Faith
06-14-2013 3:23 AM


Re: The woman in Revelation
Of course whatever you think trumps whatever some Christians happen to think. I guess that counts as objective argument to you.
No, I've explained what trumps what these particular Christians believe. I'm not sure why you're having difficulty grasping it.
The woman in Revelation is clothed. The statue of Europa is naked.
The woman in Revelation is carrying a cup. Europa is empty-handed.
The woman in Revelation is bedecked in precious stones. Europa isn't.
The beast in Revelation has seven heads. Zeus, in the statue, has one.
The beast in Revelation has ten horns. Zeus, in the statue, has two.
In short, the statue of Europa differs from the description of the woman riding a beast in Revelation in every single named detail.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 268 by Faith, posted 06-14-2013 3:23 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 270 by Faith, posted 06-14-2013 4:30 AM caffeine has replied

  
caffeine
Member (Idle past 1141 days)
Posts: 1800
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008


Message 271 of 313 (701217)
06-14-2013 4:59 AM
Reply to: Message 270 by Faith
06-14-2013 4:30 AM


Re: The woman in Revelation
Yes you can tick off all those differences and to your mind that makes us wrong. Again, this is all a subjective judgment, we CAN'T be wrong. This argument is really ridiculous. We're perfectly capable of toting up the differences ourselves. Obviously to us that's all unnecessary, but since you think it's necessary you actually think that makes you RIGHT?
Well, obviously this argument isn't going to get us anywhere. I just don't understand how this can be a matter of opinion. There's a description, and there's a thing that doesn't match that description. I'm at a loss what more to say, so I'll just leave you with this promotional phonecard from the 1990s, which I find unaccountably hilarious.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 270 by Faith, posted 06-14-2013 4:30 AM Faith has not replied

  
caffeine
Member (Idle past 1141 days)
Posts: 1800
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008


(1)
Message 295 of 313 (701324)
06-17-2013 5:08 AM
Reply to: Message 283 by Faith
06-14-2013 11:46 AM


He said, she said
the supposedly empty 666 seat which somebody said isn't empty but others say is.
Not everything is a matter of unverifiable opinion, you know. We don't have to rely on mere hearsay. Some facts can be easily checked. You can download the seating plans for both European Parliament buildings here on the Europa website, like Dr. Adequate already did upthread.
This is Eva Lichtenberger, MEP for the Austrian Green Party. For this session of Parliament, she has seat 666 in Brussels:
This is Petru Constantin Luhan, MEP for the Romanian Liberal Democrat Party (which, lest you be confused by the contradictory political terminology of Europe, is in fact a centre-right party allied with the Christian Democrats). He has seat 666 is Strasbourg.
It worries me that you're still listing as potential supporting evidence something that we checked and established to be clearly and uncontroversially untrue. What sort of evidence would it take for you to change an opinion?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 283 by Faith, posted 06-14-2013 11:46 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 296 by Faith, posted 06-17-2013 7:43 AM caffeine has replied

  
caffeine
Member (Idle past 1141 days)
Posts: 1800
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008


(2)
Message 297 of 313 (701327)
06-17-2013 8:52 AM
Reply to: Message 296 by Faith
06-17-2013 7:43 AM


Re: He said, she said
Did you check how long the seat was empty before it was filled? Apparently in 1999 when the first meeting was held in the new building it was empty and that's what started the rumors. Ian Paisley is famous for having shouted down the Pope at a European congress of some sort, and for writing about the empty seat,
I'm unable to find the seating plan from 1999 anywhere, so I'm not sure what to make of hateful bigot Ian Paisley's claims. I'm having difficulty finding out how many seats there actually were inthe Strasbourg building in 1999. Paisley claims 680, but now there are almost 800. The Parliament was smaller in 1999, but expansion talks were well under way, so it seems a bit odd to me if the newly designed building wasn't prepared with enough seats to handle the 2004 elections. I'll see if I can figure this out later.
At the following website I found a
Comment written two years ago by a Stuart B claiming to work at the Strasbourg Parliament, saying the seat was filled then but he gave different names than yours. Perhaps they change frequently?
Yes, I assume the seating plans do change from time to time, certainly at election times, but if this Stuart B. was correct two years ago, apparently in between. Mr. Mastella sits in 672 in Strasbourg at the moment, while Ms. Rivasi is in 65 at Brussels.
(Also, not that I think Mr. Luhan is the Antichrist, but I would point out that usually the Christian Democratic Party is a Catholic party)
Well, he's not a Christian Democrat, Romania has no Christian Democrat Party. The European People's Party, the main centre right grouping of which the Romanian Liberal Democrats are a member, contains 14 parties with the word 'Christian' in their title. It's difficult to say which ones are Catholic, since many of them have both Catholic and Protestant members. At least four (the Dutch Christian Democrat Appeal, Swedish Christian Democrats, Finnish Christian Democrats and the largest party - the German Christian Democratic Union) are overwhelmingly Protestant, though.
ABE: So, I've done some trawling through the webs, and have discovered that the Strasbourg Parliament building was, indeed, built with 750 seats in the plenary chamber, to accommodate the expanded European Parliament that would come into being when new countries from Eastern Europe joined. There were, in 1999, on 626 MEPs, meaning that about 100 seats were left vacant (some being reserved for commissioners). Seat 666 was one of the hundred or so empty seats, whether this was just coincidence or whether it was done for the same reasons that some buildings don't have a floor 13, I have no idea.
Since the big expansion of the EU in 2004, seat 666 in Strasbourg has been continuously occupied.
Oh, and one erratum. Romania apparently does have a Christian Democratic Party, but they are small and don't have any representation in the European Parliament.
Edited by caffeine, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 296 by Faith, posted 06-17-2013 7:43 AM Faith has not replied

  
caffeine
Member (Idle past 1141 days)
Posts: 1800
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008


Message 310 of 313 (804017)
04-06-2017 1:22 PM
Reply to: Message 308 by Theodoric
04-06-2017 11:52 AM


Davidjay seem to be nothing more than copypasta.
Javier Solona left EU leadership in 2009
I wonder how long we are going to have to put up with this joker.
He was replying to the OP, written in 2005. That's why the question about Solana is in quotation marks.
The OPs question was posed 12 years ago, however, and was the poster's sole contribution. I don't think he's still awaiting a reply.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 308 by Theodoric, posted 04-06-2017 11:52 AM Theodoric has not replied

Replies to this message:
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