To "Believe in God/Jesus" Means

No,as I said, that would have been a given at the time. The question of the day was not whether or not GOD existed but rather which GOD could help you most. I don't understand what you're trying to say there at all.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

That's not what I said. I think what I said was that the existence of the Universe is proof to me that there is a GOD. Not for a while, sorry. Very reasonable. Well, as long as you were relying on me as your source you'd be trusting me. But I would hate to think someone would place as much faith in me as they might in GOD.I don't think a belief in GOD or Jesus can ever be a secondary relationship. It is by nature between the individual and GOD.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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I don't understand what you're trying to say there at all.

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Yes you do.I know that cars exist, so I watch for them as I cross the road.I know gravity exists, so I don't walk off tall buildings.I know that if I break the laws of society I will suffer consequences.I have experienced people within Church communities who "believe in" God, that lie, commit adultery, steal, do not help others unless it is beneficial to themselves, etc. That includes the clergy. These are not people with drug or drinking problems. They are usually the cream of the crop.Are they truly behaving as though a powerful God was judging their actions for future retribution?

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"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

Okay. No, I really didn't understand that was what you were asking. Sorry I was still in a conversation between you and me and was trying to apply what you were asking to our conversation.But I believe that's a great question. As I've said here many time IMHO some of the biggest bigots and blasphemers are leaders of the Christian Church. When you look at those who have gone into televangelism, people like Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, Jim Bakker, Oral Roberts, Jimmy Swaggart, Gene Scott and the rest, it's hard to understand how they could ever be considered Christians.My personal belief is that they are just con men, crooks. Nothing really be, just felons. But in a Biblical sense you could also say that they are Satan, the Adversary. They are, like Satan, tools of GOD. They are the tempters, those who would test Christians and lead them away from the narrow path.They have all of the characteristics of Satan, they are appealing, teach a message of self-aggrandizement, and lead folk away from GOD and Jesus. They are in the Biblical sense the Adversary of Man.AbE:Please let me add one additional thing.I really don't think the issue of ultimate judgement is that big a thing. I don't think that the message of Jesus was "Behave or you'll get punished" but rather behave because that's the right thing to do.If these folk are simply behaving incorrectly then they will be judged, but that is between GOD and them. If they are Shaitan, then they are behaving as GOD wants them to behave and they will be rewarded.Now there is the other segment you mentioned, the follower who lies, cheats, steals, commits, adultery. There are two things involved. One is that is simpy human. We screw up regularly.The second thing is that many of these folk were simply tested by Shaitan's promise that simply believing in Jesus (or even just a profession) is a get out of hell card. They believed Shaitan's message and failed the test.This message has been edited by jar, 03-28-2005 08:30 AM

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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That's not what I said. I think what I said was that the existence of the Universe is proof to me that there is a GOD.

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God is applying for the job of My Deity. You are his reference.Now if you were my reference, you could not say that you know my abilities as an Executive Secretary if you have never worked with me or were never on the customer side of my performance. You might be able to be a character witness if you knew me on a personal level, but you can't truly vouch for my skills.I didn't ask you to prove God's existence, I already accepted that you said he exists.I asked you what abilities have you witnessed and what causes you to trust them?Now you can see the Universe, but you didn't witness his creation of it. So you can't really vouch for when or how he did it.What abilities of God have you witnessed in action?

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"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

Now see you added another level.You say that God speaks to you. These people probably feel the same way.Since God apparently speaks internally and anything external is relying on what others who are supposedly in authority tell you, how does one decide who to believe/trust?

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"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

But I do see the Universe as an example of just that. You may not think I see it that way but I do. I then went on to talk about personal experience. Those are, as I have said, more in the line of a dialogue, a converstation. I trust them because my experience has been that they have always been consistent and helpful.But remember you are talking to a believer. I find evidence of GOD in many places, in a child's first awareness of the world around her, in the detail and behavior of little fingers and toes, in the flights of imagination of children at play, in my capability to appreciate beauty, in the sound of frogs that appear miraculously in puddles after a spring rain.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Again, IMHO that is the real message in Genesis and one that was later repeated in Jesus' life and teachings.The message of Genesis is not about some Fall. Instead, it is about responsibility. The moral of the Apple (or fruit of some kind) is that Man is aware of Good and Evil. With that awareness comes a responsibility. Cain's failure was not killing Able, it was a failure of responsibility; he knew what was right yet chose to do wrong.You ask, "... how does one decide who to believe/trust?" That's a great question with two key points. First, it really is up to you to make the decision. That is part of YOUR responsibility. Second, IMHO the way you decide is your knowledge of what is right and wrong. You must make a decision.GOD gave all mankind the Knowledge of Good and Evil. IMHO this is why we find so many correlations in every moral system developed. But he also gave us the capability to do either. It's which decision we choose that makes the difference.I would suggest that a good touchstone to help make that decision is Jesus recitation of the two Great Commandments and the passage I often quote from Matthew, "If you have done for the least of these ..."

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Do you see the difference in how you refer to God as opposed to how you would refer to a living person?You talk of evidence as opposed to known.Your experiences are all internal and unknowable to those who obviously are not you.In the OT the authors presented external actions from God.We don't have consistent external actions directly from God today.

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"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

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GOD gave all mankind the Knowledge of Good and Evil.

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Then the purpose of "believing in" God is what?

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"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

Yup, or at least I think so. GOD is not just another person. Absolutely true. True. But again, different times, different milieu, different culture.I'm not sure I understand your second sentence though. Can you elaborate on that for me?

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Again, I'm not sure exactly what you are asking?Is there a purpose to knowing anyone? I'd say that my personal friendship with GOD has some value. As I have said, He has been a great advisor and companion.If that's not what you were asking then I'll try again.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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I'm not sure I understand your second sentence though. Can you elaborate on that for me?

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We don't have consistent external actions directly from God today.
Something that is done so that all can see within a specific timeframe.God doesn't speak upon request to a congregation so that all can hear.
God doesn't light a candle in front of a group upon request.

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"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

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Is there a purpose to knowing anyone?

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There is when there is a major campaign that says we all should.So you feel the purpose for believing in God is companionship?So if we don't have a need for companionship, then we don't have a need to believe in God.

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"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

Okay. Still not sure I see your point or what you're asking. Well, I didn't know there was such a campaign. No. One of the things I get from my relationship with GOD is companionship. See, I still don't understand what you're talking about. Why would anyone care whether or not you believe in GOD other than yourself? That's something between you and GOD. I can't imagine why anyone else would care or even think about it?I can see and understand someone being concerned about your behavior, but not about whether or not you believe in GOD.This message has been edited by jar, 03-28-2005 12:01 PM

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion