Prophesy or self delusion?

Well I think you are upset because of the clear hostility I see in your posts.And if you have really produced an example, where is it ? A link would be good, but thread and message number will do in a pinch.And your final sentence confirms that your objections to the criteria are that the Bible fails to offer any examples of impressive prophecies.

Mike is referring to the following prophecy, which he brought up in another thread:He was wounded and crushed because of our sins;
by taking our punishment
he made us completely well

​

All of us were like sheep that had wandered off
We had each gone our own way
but the Lord gave him
the punishment we deservedI've been trying to tell him that, short of proving that the Lord exists, and thus is able to give someone the punishment we deserve, he can't actually show that the prophecy was fulfilled. But he doesn't seem to want to respond to that idea.

---

"If I had to write ten jokes about potholders, I don't think I could do it. But I could write ten jokes about Catholicism in the next twenty minutes. I guess I'm drawn to religion because I can be provocative without harming something people really care about, like their cars."
-George Meyer, Simpsons writer

One of the poblems is that particular passage is found in Isaiah 53 Contemporary English Version bible. When read in other versions the tale is quite different. For example, the KJV is quite different and seems more one of many general laments on what happens to the faithful.One good example of how general this is can be found in verse 12.In the KJV version it says "Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong;" That harldly sounds messianic, does it.Even the Contemporary English Version says Again, not very Messianic and far more prosaic lament.Too often the prophecies are quotemined from one or two verses of an otherwise long passage. When considered in total, they seldom stand up to examination.Here is all of Isaiah 53, first the KJV version and then the Contemporary English one.

quote:

---

Isaiah 53

​

1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?
2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.
3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

---

quote:

---

Isaiah 53

​

What God's Servant Did for Us
1Has anyone believed us
or seen the mighty power
of the LORD in action?
2Like a young plant or a root
that sprouts in dry ground,
the servant grew up
obeying the LORD.
He wasn't some handsome king.
Nothing about the way he looked
made him attractive to us.
3He was hated and rejected;
his life was filled with sorrow
and terrible suffering.
No one wanted to look at him.
We despised him and said,
"He is a nobody!"
4He suffered and endured
great pain for us,
but we thought his suffering
was punishment from God.
5He was wounded and crushed
because of our sins;
by taking our punishment,
he made us completely well.
6All of us were like sheep
that had wandered off.
We had each gone our own way,
but the LORD gave him
the punishment we deserved.
7He was painfully abused,
but he did not complain.
He was silent like a lamb
being led to the butcher,
as quiet as a sheep
having its wool cut off.
8He was condemned to death
without a fair trial.
Who could have imagined
what would happen to him?
His life was taken away
because of the sinful things
my people [1] had done. 9He wasn't dishonest or violent,
but he was buried in a tomb
of cruel and rich people. [2] 10The LORD decided his servant
would suffer as a sacrifice
to take away the sin
and guilt of others.
Now the servant will live
to see his own descendants. [3] He did everything
the LORD had planned.
11By suffering, the servant
will learn the true meaning
of obeying the LORD.
Although he is innocent,
he will take the punishment
for the sins of others,
so that many of them
will no longer be guilty.
12The LORD will reward him
with honor and power
for sacrificing his life.
Others thought he was a sinner,
but he suffered for our sins
and asked God to forgive us.

​

Footnotes

​

1. 53.8 my people: Or "his people."
2. 53.9 but he. . . people: One possible meaning for the difficult Hebrew text.
3. 53.10 The LORD. . . descendants: One possible meaning for the difficult Hebrew text.

---

---

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Can you show that Jesus was ugly, Mike? That seems to be a part of the prophecy's fulfillment as well.

---

"If I had to write ten jokes about potholders, I don't think I could do it. But I could write ten jokes about Catholicism in the next twenty minutes. I guess I'm drawn to religion because I can be provocative without harming something people really care about, like their cars."
-George Meyer, Simpsons writer

Hello mike the wiz,You miss the point.

quote:

---

Originally posted by mike the wiz

​

. . . if we all agree . . . then we know it's the Spirit.

---

And when you don't, what is it then? It is one or more persons/factions that think they are being led by the Spirit when in reality they are not.Which proves the point that people can fool themselves about being led by the Spirit. Thus, when whatever group of people you are referring to agree about something, it does not mean "it's the Spirit". It means only that you agree about something.Amlodhi

Lol. I have said previously that I met the criteria and more - are you having problems with your reading? Infact - all the biblical prophecies are true - most are impressive. I might repeat that later on incase you're still having problems with your reading.It is YOUR SIDE that says they aren't impressive. *Sheesh*This message has been edited by mike the wiz, 10-05-2004 02:44 PM

Jar - please read what I said in my first reply in this thread - my intention is to offer no sign, because I have wasted my time in the past - showing clear reasonable and logically valid prophecies.There have been many provided, even to you Schraff and Dan in that thread - all of them are true - they are fact. Documentational fact - and you cannot get rid of them.Look - you can all shout it out loud that no clear valid prophecy has been made - but the fact that my own brain recalls providing them - kind of trumps this baloney, and therefore - yes - true and valid prophecies have been made. I remember reading them, and showing them, and they are valid and true.

Ahahahaha. Sorry Jar - not so. I read the whole book, and even your example seems to confirm Christ. The fact is that these true prophecies stand up completely to many people - none of them however, are unbelievers. Lol.And those quotes, well - they seem to be accurate - thanks, and help the position that biblical prophecies in Isaiah are impressive and accurate. I can imagine it right now - all you guys are reading these quotes and saying " It doesn't mention Christ, it doesn't mention Christ, it doesn't doesn't doesn't doesn't"Who r u trying to convince? Me or you? I was waiting to see when this would happen, and I waited, and waited, and waited....

quote:

---

Look - you can all shout it out loud that no clear valid prophecy has been made - but the fact that my own brain recalls providing them - kind of trumps this baloney, and therefore - yes - true and valid prophecies have been made. I remember reading them, and showing them, and they are valid and true.

---

Forget that Lionel Hutz guy, I want Mike to defend me at my murder trial.regards,
Esteban Hambre

You want to claim that an invisible pink unicorn murdered the victim instead of you?

Use the mantras, Mike. They're much more effective. They're also much catchier than the stuff you're mindlessly repeating.no-thag-awla-cavy. no-thag-awla-cavy. no-thag-awla-cavy.sho-fa-lee-da. sho-fa-lee-da. sho-fa-lee-da. They are valid prophecies, because Mike provided them.Well. This certainly doesn't sound like self-delusion. You sure showed us. Actually, I'm still waiting for you to show that God exists, since he's required for the fulfillment of the prophecy.You still haven't done it. In fact, you haven't even acknowledged this point yet. Why is that, Mike?

---

"If I had to write ten jokes about potholders, I don't think I could do it. But I could write ten jokes about Catholicism in the next twenty minutes. I guess I'm drawn to religion because I can be provocative without harming something people really care about, like their cars."
-George Meyer, Simpsons writer

I have just advanced the new Prophecy re-visited topic.Adminnemooseus

---

Comments on moderation procedures (or wish to respond to admin messages)? - Go to
Change in Moderation?
or
Thread Reopen Requests
or
Considerations of topic promotions from the Proposed New Topics forum

Well, before the topic's closed, I'd really like to give Mike a chance to explain how he can reasonably proclaim that the Isaiah prophecy is fulfilled without showing us that God exists, let alone that God did the things the prophecy said he would.I doubt he'll take the chance, but I'd like him to have it.

---

"If I had to write ten jokes about potholders, I don't think I could do it. But I could write ten jokes about Catholicism in the next twenty minutes. I guess I'm drawn to religion because I can be provocative without harming something people really care about, like their cars."
-George Meyer, Simpsons writer

I believe the other thread is much better. The criteria set out by Legend, I believe, are exactly what people like Mike can use to prove to the rest of us once and for all that the prophecies in the bible are impressively accurate.I have no problem with this thread being closed. This thread is a mess since it leaves too much room for people to dodge the issue.

I asked: Then you said:

quote:

---

I think it unreasonable that you think you can judge which is a true prophecy over the Spirit. I think unbelievers do not have the right to say which is true and which is false. Why should you none-believers decide, and then say such things as "no one prophecy is good enough"....LOL, say all you want - but you won't decide if it's true or not, and your judgements won't matter to me, or your rules.

---

...I guess you chose option b, then, eh?You already believed when you heard about the prophecies.They were not instrumental in your deciding to believe or not.What you are saying however, is that you believe because of the prophecies, but what seems to be actually true is that you think the prophecies are true because you believe that they are true.Indeed, you even pretty much say that those who don't already believe won't be able to believe that the prophecies are true.Well, OK, but then the prophecies are only meaningful to people who already believe. Big deal.