Jews Rejected God's Offer

and as i pointed out, luke even says as much.

Doesn't matter. His name was not Immanual. Immanual is just a name. My grandfathers name was Immanual too, so what?And, you are wrong. My references were what the JEWISH religion concsider messanic references.As far as the reference to Immanual in Isaiah, that was not refering to someone who was to be born 600 years later. That particular passage was talking about Isaiah's own son. It wouldn't do King Ahaz much good for
for a sign to be fullfilled 600 years in the future. The sign was that before this baby was old enough to know right and wrong, the King
of Assyria would no longer be a threat to Ahaz. In other words, it was
the time period for a woman who WAS pregnant to have a child that was old enough to know what right and wrong was. Isaiah 8.4 shows how Isaiah made sure it would happen (He went to the prophetess and INSURED she conceived.. )It had nothing to do with some son of god born 700 years later.

You do realise that the Gospel of John was a psuedograhical work that was written between 80 and 125 C.E???That makes it entirely hersay.

Ramoss, your "fact" is not proven. There is a debate about such matters. You atheists make it sound like your sources of knowledge are all that there is! You can't dismiss the counter arguments and sources from many well respected and learned Christian apologists. What books are you reading?

Jeremiah 31:31 I know it well.What is the purpose of a prophesy beyond the life of the listener?The book of Jeremiah covers the disciplinarian acts of God concerning Israel and Judah. Around chapter 29 God has Jeremiah talk about bringing them back from captivity which continues through chapter 30 and 31. Given that the theme of the Book of Jeremiah dealt with the destruction of Jerusalem etc., sending the Jews into exile, and their future return; the passages you shared are realistically speaking of that timeframe when the Jews returned to their promised land. If the prophecy was for 600 years in the future, it served no purpose for the people in exile.Then they have this assurance from God which follows the verses you shared: The Covenant: Needless to say, there is still a lot of teaching going on!What does this covenant state that the Jews have to do as their part of the covenant?What does it say they have to do for God to forgive their wickedness and remember their sins no more?I see no conditions.

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A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.

Why, I am reading conservative Christian scholars on that. You know, people like Raymond Edward Brown, and the commentary in the ANchor Bible.I would hardly classify them as atheists.Why don't you read Raymond Edward Browns 'Introduction to the New Testament', or 'An Introduction to the Gospel of John', by Dr Brown
and Francis Molony?These are not athiests. They are very mainstream conservative biblical scholars. They just so happen to go with the evidence, and not with wishful thinking like your sources.

Genesis 15:13 says: Why did God tell Abraham that his seed would eventually serve Egypt and be afflicted four hundred years?Why does God tell anyone anything?

one more time around this simple idea: genesis was not written in the time of abraham. nor isaac. nor jacob.in fact, i seriously doubt it was written during moses's lfietime as well. the best date i can find is about 600 -- in BABYLONIAN captivity. does the prophesy make more sense now? it's about egypt, but it's supposed to say to the reader "god got us out of egypt, he can get us out babylon too" or at the very least give them something to identify with.

Websters online: So what was that word again?

Maybe pseudepigraphical ?

1. Spurious writings, especially writings falsely attributed to biblical characters or times.
2. A body of texts written between 200 B.C. and A.D. 200 and spuriously ascribed to various prophets and kings of Hebrew Scriptures.

(From dictionary.com)

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Confused ? You will be...

May I see your evidence for this?

A prophet is basically a spokesman for God, a person chosen by God to speak to people on God's behalf and convey a message or teaching.In the example you gave, God didn't tell Abraham to pass on the information to anyone else. The purpose is between God and Abraham.Jeremiah on the other hand was told to deliver information to the House of Israel and Judah.We can see the purpose of Jeremiah before 31:31.God gave warnings of destruction. Pretty much change or be destroyed.
Then the warning of imminent destruction. All of which are within the lifetime of the audience.Then God has Jeremiah speak of restoration and forgiveness. Logically these are also within the lifetime of the audience.It serves no purpose beyond the lifetime of the audience.

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A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.

What then do you say about the Messianic prophesies by the prophets?From a Christian perspective, they were not fulfilled till Christ.From a Jewish perspective, they have not been fulfilled even to this day.

yes, you have a copy. it's called the book of genesis.i won't even bother quoting. we all know where abraham was from: ur of the chaldeans. when were the chaldeans in ur? about 900-600 bc.want some more evidence? look at the heavy babylonian influences: one creation account, the story of noah and the tower of babel are prime examples. noah's often debated, as is creation, so lets look at babel.there really is a tower of babel. if i recall correctly, it's where we get the name "babylon" from. bab-el means ladder of the gods (or "stairway to heaven" if you will). it was completed at some point (a few millenia before christ), but fell into disrepair and crumbled, leaving only the first few levels of the ziggurat. around 600 bc, king nebuchadnezzar (remember him?) set about to rebuild and it was never finished. so we have an ancient babylonian temple, that "reached to the heavens" and a failed attempt to rebuild it by a very famous king....and a story in the bible that makes fun of it. you see, the tower of babel story is a JOKE. balal means "confusion" and SOUNDS like babel. and so the hebrews reading this story, and looking at nebuchadnezzar's project are laughing. "god must have confused him or made him stupid," they would say.it's entirely too much of a coincidence for there to be a project to rebuild the babel ziggurat while the hebrews are there for it to NOT indicate that it influenced the writing.now, i can't begin to point out all of the anti-babylon subtext in genesis. but it's sure there in abundance. this one was just a really good example. re-read genesis and watch for slander of babylon. if moses wrote the book, you'd think it'd be anti-egyptian, not anti-babylonian. i don't think the hebrews were even concerned with babylon until they were forced into subjugation.so i think it makes a lot more sense to say that good portion of genesis was written IN babylon, or compiled and editted in babylon. i suspect a large motivation in doing this was to preserve certain oral legends, myths, and stories, so that the hebrew tradition would stay alive and isolated in a foriegn land. although i'm also pretty sure that certain parts of it date much, much earlier.the point is that moses couldn't have written about the chaldeans, probably didn't write about the tower of babel, and certainly didn't care about the babylonians in the slightest. and so those bits at least must date much later than his lifetime.This message has been edited by Arachnophilia, 11-25-2004 01:27 AM

"pseudepigraphical" is even harder to spell than "apocrypha" and "septuagint" combined but not as hard as "floccinaucinihilipilification"just thank god we don't have to use that last one in bible study... well, sometimes, i guess. for instance i tend to floccinaucinihilipilificate the book of john and the letters of paul...