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Author Topic:   Determining a book's truth.
Psalm148
Member (Idle past 6121 days)
Posts: 46
Joined: 06-12-2007


Message 121 of 161 (407037)
06-23-2007 4:00 PM
Reply to: Message 120 by iceage
06-23-2007 11:49 AM


Re: Evolution of Ideas
Matthew misquotes, but I believe it also quotes things we don't have. There were other prophets, and prophecies that have been lost. My take on that, God doesn't see a need for us to have them.
I'm very glad that you brought up that contradiction about heaven and hell, because you are right to a degree.
There is a reason the current concept of hell is viewed like Hades, it is because that is what it is. When Constantine merged with Christianity, he brought things with him, one of those is the modern concept of hell. Many ideas of how hell is come from revelation, a clearly symbolic book for the most part. It was a vision and as in most vision, things stood for something else. Let me give an example, and what I think is its interpretation:
Rev 16:13 And I saw, coming out of the mouth of the dragon and out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet, three unclean spirits like frogs.
Rev 16:14 For they are demonic spirits, performing signs, who go abroad to the kings of the whole world, to assemble them for battle on the great day of God the Almighty.
I want to look at the frogs. They are called unclean spirits who go abroad to kings (gov't leaders) of the earth to bring them to battle.
So what are these spirits? Liberty, Fraternity, Equality.
picture of an old french banner lazarusunbound.com (granted its a christian site, but I was having trouble in keeping the search short.
But the point is this, Liberty, Fraternity, and Equality, was the War Cry of the FR. And things like liberty keep nations at war today *coughiraqcough*.
In the OT, the concept of Resurrection is there. Abraham knew God could raise Isaac if he died, and he must have believed it at his own death, otherwise he would be in heap of trouble as he never received the land. Plus, if he ascended to heaven, he never received the land still, and God has been slack in his promise.
The fact is, nobody except Christ ascended to heaven. That is something that has been screwed up throughout Christianity.
Act 2:34 For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he himself says, "'The Lord said to my Lord, Sit at my right hand,
David was the man after God's own heart. And he didn't make it. I think I'm way below the mark.
If Heaven were what the goal was, why have a Resurrection? The fact is, a book can only be true for a person if its interpretation is correct. Since people start off with the idea of 'heaven' as the place of eternal reward, that is what they think about when they read.
As for hell, it is as the OT interprets it. You die, and just that happens, you die and are dead. Lazarus died, was dead for long enough to stink, and then was brought back to life. He didn't come declaring that heaven was so awesome, so people better be good, and he didn't say hell was so bad people better shape up, no. He died, and was dead, it was like he had been asleep. That is how Jesus refers to him when he tells his disciples he is going to raise him.
The reward has always been this: Resurrection and eternal life, this takes place in something called the Kingdom of God.
The punishment is eternal death. Oblivion (and not like the game). It is like a continual state of unconsciousness. They cease to exist.
Faith and works. A balance. compare James: Faith without works is dead. you show faith by works, but works can't save you because none of us are perfect. So we need faith.
Wealth and luxury are a blessing, but they can also be a snare. Money is evil in the way that it can become and idol because you dedicate all of your time to it. It becomes more important than God or anything else. That is wrong. Having money isn't wrong, but having a lot can be dangerous.
Even in the Old Testament they loved those of other nationalities. David had an alliance with Tyre. I think the kings name was Hiram. They are told to treat sojourners well.
They had a reason, and were told to fight then. Now is not the time to fight.
Women have always been valued and important. Roles may shift a little as time goes on, but the hard fast things didn't change.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by iceage, posted 06-23-2007 11:49 AM iceage has replied

Replies to this message:
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iceage 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5916 days)
Posts: 1024
From: Pacific Northwest
Joined: 09-08-2003


Message 122 of 161 (407048)
06-23-2007 8:19 PM
Reply to: Message 121 by Psalm148
06-23-2007 4:00 PM


Re: Evolution of Ideas
Psalms writes:
Matthew misquotes, but I believe it also quotes things we don't have.
Yup Matthew does misquote. So for those looking for a contradiction and maybe a clue that the Bible is not "God Breathed" or inerrant there it is.
Psalms writes:
When Constantine merged with Christianity, he brought things with him, one of those is the modern concept of hell.
The concept of hell as punishment, with all the accessories, and eternal suffering is very well supported by the NT alone (outside of Revelations). We also can't blame Constantine for this one. There are numerous and vivid descriptions of Hell in Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.
The major point is this... The ideas of Salvation, Heaven and Hell morphed or evolved over the time period of the writings of the Bible. These are memes, if you will, that have durability because they are successful marketing tools and capture the imagination. Successful concepts for conversion of the unwitting maybe, but a very obvious clue that the Bible is not Godly inspired. To claim that the Bible is God thoughts is blasphemy.
Psalms writes:
David was the man after God's own heart. And he didn't make it. I think I'm way below the mark.
I dunno, I suspect that you are not an adulterer or a murderer? David was.
Psalms writes:
The fact is, nobody except Christ ascended to heaven.
Well this is hardly a fact.
However this is yet another contradiction. The text of the OT clearly says Elijah "went up by a whirlwind into heaven"
Psalms writes:
If Heaven were what the goal was, why have a Resurrection?
A good point I suppose, but the Bible is not clear! We can argue all day long with scripture and counter-scripture. The fact that we can debate this or faith/works or others features of the religion is proof in itself that the Bible is inconsistent message!
The Bible is exactly the result of what one would expect of various authors writing about "spiritual" things that you cannot measure - each has their own bent, bias and predilections .
Edited by iceage, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by Psalm148, posted 06-23-2007 4:00 PM Psalm148 has not replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1345 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 123 of 161 (407057)
06-23-2007 9:39 PM
Reply to: Message 119 by Izar
06-23-2007 10:31 AM


Re: Tyre
arachnophilia Email me please (email)
hi, welcome to evcforum. this is a public debate forum, and although some members have been known to speak outside of the forum, for most people the debate goes on right here. if you have something to add to the discussion, please feel free to do here.
also, it might not be wise to post email addresses so publicly -- granted, it's a hotmail account, but expect even more spam.
Edited by arachnophilia, : broken tag


This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by Izar, posted 06-23-2007 10:31 AM Izar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 129 by Izar, posted 06-23-2007 11:38 PM arachnophilia has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 285 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 124 of 161 (407059)
06-23-2007 10:02 PM
Reply to: Message 118 by Psalm148
06-22-2007 11:42 PM


Pythagoras. Perhaps this can prove a point. I've never really heard of this guy. Your everyday Joe has probably never heard of him at all.
His doctrine is taught to schoolchildren worldwide, and has earned wider credence than Christianity.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by Psalm148, posted 06-22-2007 11:42 PM Psalm148 has replied

Replies to this message:
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Psalm148
Member (Idle past 6121 days)
Posts: 46
Joined: 06-12-2007


Message 125 of 161 (407064)
06-23-2007 10:53 PM


Pythagoras. Then why do I know nothing about him? Do people still believe in his teachings?
By the by, could I get a couple of the misquotations in Matthew? However, are we also certain that he is quoting from what we know? As I pointed out earlier, he quotes from something that is not in the recorded Bible. So is it possible then that what he says is referencing something we don't have?
Descriptions of Hell. Give them to me. The Greek word is Gehenna. Which was a place outside of Jerusalem for burning trash, dung, dead criminals, and probably other things as well. So this is what is referenced each time Jesus or someone else (generally, someone says Hades eleven times) is referring to.
However, Elijah didn't stay there, he is referenced again later in that he sent a message to a king. Plus, heaven has three meanings:
Sky, place of celestial (planets) dwelling, and the place God lives.
Elijah went up into the sky.
No, I am neither, but I doubt I rank higher than David on any given list of faithful people. David is also named among some pretty big names in Heb.11 as faithful people, so to say any of us here on this forum are better than David, you would be directly comparing yourself to the other men in there as well.
The ideas of Salvation, Heaven and Hell morphed or evolved over the time period of the writings of the Bible.
Ideas changed because of tradition, which Jews are quite big on. Jesus corrected many things when he was on his ministry. The writings in the Bible always have been consistent. Humans have not.
Luk 4:43 but he said to them, "I must preach the good news of the kingdom of God to the other towns as well; for I was sent for this purpose."
Explain to me what you think Jesus meant when he said "the good news of the Kingdom of God". The true key to Jesus message lies in there.
If there is a Resurrection and their is a heaven, one has to be better than the other. Do only the really good get into heaven? Is heaven purgatory until the Resurrection? One of the biggest hope of first century believers is in the Resurrection. Note when it is said "some have fallen asleep"
1Co 15:6 Then he appeared to more than five hundred brothers at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have fallen asleep.
Why does he say "fallen asleep"? Why not say "those who wait in heaven"? Or "those who have gone to our Lord"? We can't just say, "the Bible is not clear", thats like saying, "its a mystery". Because it isn't. The overall message of the Bible is very clear and is on the surface. Read without preconceived notions, and think about what you read, and the true message of it should come to you.

Replies to this message:
 Message 127 by jar, posted 06-23-2007 11:13 PM Psalm148 has replied
 Message 133 by iceage, posted 06-24-2007 2:25 AM Psalm148 has replied

  
Psalm148
Member (Idle past 6121 days)
Posts: 46
Joined: 06-12-2007


Message 126 of 161 (407066)
06-23-2007 11:06 PM
Reply to: Message 124 by Dr Adequate
06-23-2007 10:02 PM


Pythagoras
After a quick search, you can credit anything said about as much as Equinox would credit the Bible (no offense meant, I was lacking an analogy).
In short, there is little known about him from his actual time. Most of the things about him (even the Pythagorean theorem), were possibly fabricated by his followers after his death.
Because of how he taught, with those knowing the most, those in his inner circle, they didn't reveal much, and thus as time went by, it is undoubtedly that most of his thoughts have been skewed.
I sincerely doubt it has received wider credence than Christianity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-23-2007 10:02 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 395 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 127 of 161 (407067)
06-23-2007 11:13 PM
Reply to: Message 125 by Psalm148
06-23-2007 10:53 PM


Jesus was not a Christian.
Jesus was born a Jew, lived as a Jew and died as a Jew.
One of the big problems with much of modern Christian interpretations of the Bible is that they ignore the fact that it is a Jewish book. The authors writing it were Jews. The author of Mark, of Matthew, of Luke, of the Epistles were all Jews.
This loss of context obscures much of the significance of the stories and parables. A good example is the tale of the first miracle.
Too often the importance of the story is simply not taught to Christians. Instead, they concentrate on the late night beer run and the quality of the brew.
To the people hearing that tale, those would have been among the very least important parts.
For example.
The reason there was so much water present to be turned into wine was because a Jewish wedding was filled with tradition, each requiring ritual washing. The water was essential to the wedding, more important even than the wine.
When Jesus turned the water into wine, he placed a total halt on the rituals. The message is NOT in the wine, it is in Jesus saying that ritual and belief is unnecessary. He is saying that the ceremony is not what is significant, that living the life is.
There are also several other major threads that run through that story, ones almost never touched on in Christian ministry, parallels and sub-texts, hints of things to come in the story.
The whole tale is a plot device used to set up later events in the narrative. I will leave those as an exercise for you to find.
Pythagoras. Then why do I know nothing about him?
Surely you jest. Have you taken first year geometry yet?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by Psalm148, posted 06-23-2007 10:53 PM Psalm148 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 128 by Psalm148, posted 06-23-2007 11:35 PM jar has replied

  
Psalm148
Member (Idle past 6121 days)
Posts: 46
Joined: 06-12-2007


Message 128 of 161 (407068)
06-23-2007 11:35 PM
Reply to: Message 127 by jar
06-23-2007 11:13 PM


first year Geometry
Yes. A2+B2=C2. His Theorem. We don't actually know that he even did that. Personally, I give him the credit, but there is no proof that he did. We have none of his writings, and it is entirely possible that members of his sect invented that he came up with that idea.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by jar, posted 06-23-2007 11:13 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 131 by jar, posted 06-23-2007 11:53 PM Psalm148 has replied
 Message 132 by Nighttrain, posted 06-24-2007 2:09 AM Psalm148 has replied

  
Izar
Junior Member (Idle past 6123 days)
Posts: 3
Joined: 06-23-2007


Message 129 of 161 (407069)
06-23-2007 11:38 PM
Reply to: Message 123 by arachnophilia
06-23-2007 9:39 PM


Re: Tyre
I wanted to talk to you about something posted in 2006. Thats why I posted my email. I'm not worrying about spam. Just trying to talk to ya. Email me.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by arachnophilia, posted 06-23-2007 9:39 PM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 130 by arachnophilia, posted 06-23-2007 11:44 PM Izar has replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1345 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 130 of 161 (407071)
06-23-2007 11:44 PM
Reply to: Message 129 by Izar
06-23-2007 11:38 PM


Re: Tyre
I wanted to talk to you about something posted in 2006.
you were replying to a message posted this month. however, should you mean something else, please feel free to dig up that old thread if it is not closed. if it is, perhaps you could post a proposed new topic? or at least related to me what it is, and if i'm interested, i could propose one?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by Izar, posted 06-23-2007 11:38 PM Izar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 137 by Izar, posted 06-24-2007 2:17 PM arachnophilia has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 395 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 131 of 161 (407073)
06-23-2007 11:53 PM
Reply to: Message 128 by Psalm148
06-23-2007 11:35 PM


Re: first year Geometry
Yes. A2+B2=C2. His Theorem. We don't actually know that he even did that. Personally, I give him the credit, but there is no proof that he did. We have none of his writings, and it is entirely possible that members of his sect invented that he came up with that idea.
Irrelevant. In fact back when I had first year Geometry we were taught that it was very likely that many others had developed the theory. We knew for sure that the Egyptians had calculated complex geometric shapes including truncated pyramids (which shows they could also handle untruncated pyramids) long before Pythagoras using only fractions and considerably earlier, by at least 4000 years ago.
But it was still the "Pythagorean Theory".
However that was but a byline, a throw away of the response. The important things were in the parts above that throw away, and that Pythagoras name has lasted even longer than Jesus'.
Edited by jar, : add er

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by Psalm148, posted 06-23-2007 11:35 PM Psalm148 has replied

Replies to this message:
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Nighttrain
Member (Idle past 3994 days)
Posts: 1512
From: brisbane,australia
Joined: 06-08-2004


Message 132 of 161 (407095)
06-24-2007 2:09 AM
Reply to: Message 128 by Psalm148
06-23-2007 11:35 PM


Re: first year Geometry
Yes. A2+B2=C2. His Theorem. We don't actually know that he even did that. Personally, I give him the credit, but there is no proof that he did. We have none of his writings, and it is entirely possible that members of his sect invented that he came up with that idea.
Damn, we could be talking perilously close to the story and speeches of Jesus.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by Psalm148, posted 06-23-2007 11:35 PM Psalm148 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 136 by Psalm148, posted 06-24-2007 2:01 PM Nighttrain has replied

  
iceage 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5916 days)
Posts: 1024
From: Pacific Northwest
Joined: 09-08-2003


Message 133 of 161 (407097)
06-24-2007 2:25 AM
Reply to: Message 125 by Psalm148
06-23-2007 10:53 PM


Psalm writes:
By the by, could I get a couple of the misquotations in Matthew?
There are several. But the clearest is where Matthew incorrectly attributes a prophecy by Zechariah to Jeremiah...
quote:
Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremy the prophet, saying, And they took the thirty pieces of silver, the price of him that was valued, whom they of the children of Israel did value
  —Matthew 27:9
While it sure looks like he was off a prophet or two and was referring to Zechariah....
quote:
And I said unto them, If ye think good, give me my price; and if not, forbear. So they weighed for my price thirty pieces of silver. And the Lord said unto me, Cast it unto the potter: a goodly price that I was prised at of them. And I took the thirty pieces of silver, and cast them to the potter in the house of the Lord.
  —Zechariah 11:12-13
An easy mistake as Matthew did not have Google to help out
Psalm writes:
So is it possible then that what he says is referencing something we don't have?
That is a possibility. However this raises more problems than it solves. Christians often claim the sacredness of the OT because the Apostles and Jesus referred to it on many occasions. If the NT references other missing works then this implies that the Bible is incomplete.
Psalms writes:
Descriptions of Hell. Give them to me
Look'm up - lake of fire, hell fire and unquenchable fire, very graphic.
Psalms writes:
However, Elijah didn't stay there, he is referenced again later in that he sent a message to a king.
A contradiction that solves another contradiction. I like it
Psalms writes:
Plus, heaven has three meanings:
Sky, place of celestial (planets) dwelling, and the place God lives.
Elijah went up into the sky.
Sure let's examine that thought
quote:
suddenly a chariot of fire and horses of fire appeared and separated the two of them, and Elijah went up to heaven in a whirlwind.
If it said "into the heavens" I may buy that explanation. Yes, maybe all the Bible interpreters got it wrong and confused. Unless someone can show otherwise, I will take the interpretation given literally. To say he was just being transported via air mail sounds very contrived and out of character.
Psalms writes:
Ideas changed because of tradition, which Jews are quite big on. Jesus corrected many things when he was on his ministry. The writings in the Bible always have been consistent. Humans have not.
No no no, the writings in the bible are not consistent! That is whole point.
The ideas I mentioned are explicitly and literally based on the "writings in the bible" - not traditions. Or are you saying the "writings in the bible" are based on tradition? If so, thank you we agree.
Psalms writes:
The overall message of the Bible is very clear and is on the surface.
No it is not.
The best evidence that it is not clear, is the 1001 Christian denominations that adamantly hold they have the right doctrine all backed up by ... "scripture" of course, and led by the spirit.
Psalms writes:
Read without preconceived notions, and think about what you read, and the true message of it should come to you.
When I was child I read the bible with the preconceived notion that it was true and word of God. When I became an adult and became more aware about the universe, other religions and philosophies and human nature the true message of the bible was obvious.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by Psalm148, posted 06-23-2007 10:53 PM Psalm148 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 134 by jar, posted 06-24-2007 11:17 AM iceage has not replied
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jar
Member (Idle past 395 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 134 of 161 (407123)
06-24-2007 11:17 AM
Reply to: Message 133 by iceage
06-24-2007 2:25 AM


On quoting outside sources.
That is a possibility. However this raises more problems than it solves. Christians often claim the sacredness of the OT because the Apostles and Jesus referred to it on many occasions. If the NT references other missing works then this implies that the Bible is incomplete.
That actually happens all the time. A couple examples can be found in Jude and also in what is attributed to Jesus himself.
Jude references material from 1 Enoch which was rejected in most Canons (but not all) as well as the Assumption of Moses which was also rejected.
The author of Matthew has Jesus asserting that David was the literal author of Psalm 110 and the author of Acts does the same with Peter.
The only connection exists in the Psalm Title, but Titles were not added to the Psalms until long after they were written. If you read the 70 some Psalms attributed to David several incongruities jump out. Psalm 5 has a reference to the Temple when it did not yet exist, and not as prophecy but rather fact and Psalm 139 is in a Northern dialect and David was a Southern King.
Now it is possible that David actually wrote the Psalms attributed to him, but it was also common during the period to write things and attribute them to some well known character. We do know that the attribution and Titles though came long after the fact.
The important point is that "Scripture" does not refer to what anyone knows as "The Bible', it refers to inspired writing. And the value of inspired writig is not whether it was at some time Canonized, or who the author is, but in the lessons that can be learned.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 133 by iceage, posted 06-24-2007 2:25 AM iceage has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 139 by Psalm148, posted 06-24-2007 2:40 PM jar has replied

  
Psalm148
Member (Idle past 6121 days)
Posts: 46
Joined: 06-12-2007


Message 135 of 161 (407137)
06-24-2007 1:56 PM
Reply to: Message 131 by jar
06-23-2007 11:53 PM


Re: first year Geometry
[qs]However that was but a byline, a throw away of the response. The important things were in the parts above that throw away, and that Pythagoras name has lasted even longer than Jesus'./[qs] Ummm, that is only because he has physically been around longer than Jesus. That is therefore an irrelevant point. And his name isn't larger, because, and I think this is the true way to test this, as far as 'big names' go, it only matters so much if common people everywhere know of them.
How many do you know of that still follow Pythagorean ideals? And then compare that with how many follow Christ's. There is no comparison.
As for what is said earlier in the post though, I agree with just about everything you said. Need to think a little on the other parts.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by jar, posted 06-23-2007 11:53 PM jar has not replied

  
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