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Author Topic:   Jonah and the Whale.. a question.
xevolutionist
Member (Idle past 6923 days)
Posts: 189
From: Salem, Oregon, US
Joined: 01-13-2005


Message 31 of 71 (185543)
02-15-2005 11:39 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by Brian
02-14-2005 3:09 PM


Re: Human prayers not answered...
If Jonah had no free will he would have willingly gone to Nineveh.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Brian, posted 02-14-2005 3:09 PM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by Brian, posted 02-15-2005 12:44 PM xevolutionist has replied

  
xevolutionist
Member (Idle past 6923 days)
Posts: 189
From: Salem, Oregon, US
Joined: 01-13-2005


Message 32 of 71 (185547)
02-15-2005 12:04 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by crashfrog
02-14-2005 3:18 PM


Re: God's nature
Perhaps I don't know what you are trying to say. As I understand solipsism, an individual can not know for sure that anything external is real, and therefore that individual determines his own reality.
When an individual believes that an external power is the ultimate determiner of reality , that would seem to me to be the opposite of solipsism.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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xevolutionist
Member (Idle past 6923 days)
Posts: 189
From: Salem, Oregon, US
Joined: 01-13-2005


Message 33 of 71 (185548)
02-15-2005 12:29 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by Chiroptera
02-15-2005 11:38 AM


Re: Something greater than God!
The way it seems to be working now is that those in power [the most powerful] determine the laws. Other than the Jews who attempted to follow God's commandments, and had requested that He provide a list so there would be no misunderstandings. But even they either wouldn't follow the guidelines, or added more to take advantage of the weak.
You seem to be looking at God as an evil dictator, while I view Him as a caring father, wanting to teach the toddler not to handle the rattlesnake.
Where then would we get our standard of morality if not from an all knowing God?
This message has been edited by xevolutionist, 02-15-2005 12:40 AM

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 Message 34 by AdminJar, posted 02-15-2005 12:37 PM xevolutionist has replied

  
AdminJar
Inactive Member


Message 34 of 71 (185551)
02-15-2005 12:37 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by xevolutionist
02-15-2005 12:29 PM


This is your second warning.
Where then would we get our standard of morality if not from an all knowing God? NAMBLA would be as morally correct as mother Teresa.
This was your second instance of bringing in totally absurd red herrings in this thread alone. Unless you want a time out debate and discuss and quit bringing up totally nonsense irrelevancies.

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This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 35 of 71 (185553)
02-15-2005 12:44 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by xevolutionist
02-15-2005 11:39 AM


Re: Human prayers not answered...
hi X,
I fail to see how you can come to this conclusion if you have read the Book of Jonah.
Jonah's choice was to NOT go to Nineveh, he tried to run away from the mission.
Why do you think God had him swallowed by a sea creature?
Where was the boat Jonah was on bound for?
Cheers.
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by xevolutionist, posted 02-15-2005 11:39 AM xevolutionist has replied

Replies to this message:
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xevolutionist
Member (Idle past 6923 days)
Posts: 189
From: Salem, Oregon, US
Joined: 01-13-2005


Message 36 of 71 (185554)
02-15-2005 12:47 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by AdminJar
02-15-2005 12:37 PM


Re: This is your second warning.
I was trying to show extremes of moral views. I am assuming that the examples I chose are the portions you objected to. Am I correct?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by AdminJar, posted 02-15-2005 12:37 PM AdminJar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by AdminJar, posted 02-15-2005 12:52 PM xevolutionist has replied
 Message 38 by Admin, posted 02-15-2005 12:54 PM xevolutionist has not replied

  
AdminJar
Inactive Member


Message 37 of 71 (185557)
02-15-2005 12:52 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by xevolutionist
02-15-2005 12:47 PM


Re: This is your second warning.
Not just the examples that you chose but the fact that you cannot possibly support either assertion. Bringing in NAMBLA and Hitler is not only totally off topic but simply assures that the thread will continue to drift.
Please reread the OP and try to move towards the topic and a civil discussion.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by xevolutionist, posted 02-15-2005 12:47 PM xevolutionist has replied

Replies to this message:
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Admin
Director
Posts: 12998
From: EvC Forum
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Message 38 of 71 (185559)
02-15-2005 12:54 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by xevolutionist
02-15-2005 12:47 PM


Re: This is your second warning.
I think AdminJar's concerns might have been raised when Hitler was introduced into the thread. Your point seems a good one, and maybe you can tie it into Jonah as a morality tale.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
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xevolutionist
Member (Idle past 6923 days)
Posts: 189
From: Salem, Oregon, US
Joined: 01-13-2005


Message 39 of 71 (185560)
02-15-2005 12:56 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by Brian
02-15-2005 12:44 PM


Re: Human prayers not answered...
Yes I understand that Jonah did not want the Ninevites warned. God did not subjugate Jonah's will, but His actions.
As God's chosen people, the Israelites were supposed to do God's bidding. It was part of the deal.

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 Message 35 by Brian, posted 02-15-2005 12:44 PM Brian has replied

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 Message 47 by Brian, posted 02-15-2005 5:34 PM xevolutionist has replied

  
xevolutionist
Member (Idle past 6923 days)
Posts: 189
From: Salem, Oregon, US
Joined: 01-13-2005


Message 40 of 71 (185563)
02-15-2005 1:03 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by AdminJar
02-15-2005 12:52 PM


Re: This is your second warning.
Sorry, I know I do get carried away sometimes in my responses. Originally I just wanted to point out that the Bible said it was a great fish and from a believer's point of view that was plausible. Thanks for the wake up.

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Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 41 of 71 (185569)
02-15-2005 1:31 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by AdminJar
02-15-2005 12:37 PM


Re: This is your second warning.
I also apologize -- the drift into the relationship between God and morality is partially my fault. I'll leave this off-topic topic.

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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 42 of 71 (185601)
02-15-2005 3:23 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by xevolutionist
02-15-2005 12:04 PM


As I understand solipsism, an individual can not know for sure that anything external is real, and therefore that individual determines his own reality.
You're right about the first part, but the second part doesn't necessarily follow. I don't believe that solpicism necessitates the lack of objective reality, only that we cannot percieve it.
When an individual believes that an external power is the ultimate determiner of reality , that would seem to me to be the opposite of solipsism.
Ah, but if that external power can re-arrange reality at his whim, with no restrictions, then there's no way to have reliable knowledge about that reality. Ergo, if an external, arbitrary power is the ultimate determiner of reality, then your knowledge about reality is restricted in the same way it is under solipcism; theism is an inherently solipcist position.
Suppose that the entire world had been created last tuesday, and we all have fake memories before that, thanks to God. If you can't tell the difference, how is that not solipcism?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by xevolutionist, posted 02-15-2005 12:04 PM xevolutionist has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by xevolutionist, posted 02-15-2005 3:56 PM crashfrog has replied

  
xevolutionist
Member (Idle past 6923 days)
Posts: 189
From: Salem, Oregon, US
Joined: 01-13-2005


Message 43 of 71 (185610)
02-15-2005 3:56 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by crashfrog
02-15-2005 3:23 PM


Reality
I think I see your point now, and my first thought is that if it is the current reality, what difference does it make to us, especially if we are not aware of the change?
Would that make it any less real, the period of time that it existed?
We can choose to act as if the apparent world is real, or we can act otherwise. We can believe that our knowledge is based on reality, or believe that we have no knowledge at all, if you deny the apparent reality of the external physical world.
I'm not a big Matrix fan, I only saw the first movie and found it entertaining, but I have found that if I do not eat I get very hungry and weak. I'm not being fed intravenously by some unknown machine. Odd, how having free will seems to be a central point of that movie.
At any rate, this seems far off the topic, and I seem to have read that most whales' throats are very small in diameter and they would be unable to swallow a human.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by crashfrog, posted 02-15-2005 3:23 PM crashfrog has replied

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 Message 44 by crashfrog, posted 02-15-2005 4:03 PM xevolutionist has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 44 of 71 (185611)
02-15-2005 4:03 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by xevolutionist
02-15-2005 3:56 PM


Re: Reality
I think I see your point now, and my first thought is that if it is the current reality, what difference does it make to us, especially if we are not aware of the change?
Right, exactly, that's solipcism.
We can believe that our knowledge is based on reality, or believe that we have no knowledge at all, if you deny the apparent reality of the external physical world.
Just because we don't know everything doesn't mean we know nothing. We can still come to conclusions that explain what we observe; we can still generate models that predict observations we will make. Solipcism doesn't mean we can't know anything; it just means that the maps we make are not the territory, that knowledge about observations of the universe should not be confused with knowledge about the universe.
I'm not a big Matrix fan, I only saw the first movie and found it entertaining, but I have found that if I do not eat I get very hungry and weak. I'm not being fed intravenously by some unknown machine.
Maybe you are, but you're programmed to feel hungry and weak by the machines. What are hunger and weakness if not signals from your body; signals that could be counterfeited? And have you ever actually known, I mean personally known like you grew up with them, anybody who's actually died of starvation? I sure haven't.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by xevolutionist, posted 02-15-2005 3:56 PM xevolutionist has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by xevolutionist, posted 02-15-2005 5:01 PM crashfrog has replied

  
xevolutionist
Member (Idle past 6923 days)
Posts: 189
From: Salem, Oregon, US
Joined: 01-13-2005


Message 45 of 71 (185629)
02-15-2005 5:01 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by crashfrog
02-15-2005 4:03 PM


Re: Reality
Excellent arguments. So then you are saying that solipsism is just an awareness that what you observe is not necessarily reality, as we can not know what others actually perceive, or even if what we observe corresponds to reality?

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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