Corrupting the Old Testament at all costs?

ramoss, Do you have any other instance within the bible that the word almah is refering to a harlot, someone not a virgin?

You are ignoring Jewish law and tradition.Of the SEED of David means direct male decendant, no adoptions or anything like that. That was the understanding of it. The Cohens and the Levites had the same set up with the priesthood. A person could not
become a Cohen or a Levite to serve in the temple via adoption.. it had to be a naturally born child of that father.

Well, for #2, no, he wouldn't. He was decended from David from a line that was 'cursed' and therefore that line is not eligable to take the davidic throne.

One point.. when it comes to the Jewish tradition.. it would not matter what lineage Mary is.... the lineage goes through the father for the tribe/house.

Well, there is no incident where ALmah means virgin. It is not exclusive to virgin.. but the hebrew word for Virgin is Bethulla, which Isaiah used elsewhere in this chapter.If you read just a few sentances after 7:14, you can see how Isaiah caused 7:14 to be fullfilled. Isaiah 8:3.. I went to the prophetess and
insured she conceived. In other words, Isaiah is talking about his own son, and the sign to King Ahaz was before this kid was more than a toddler, certain events would happen (Isa 8:4 For before the child shall have knowledge to cry, My father, and my mother, the riches of Damascus and the spoil of Samaria shall be taken away before the king of Assyria.)The sign is not that the child is going to be born.. but rather, it is a poetic way of giving a time period.If you want to look at where ALmah is not being refered to a virgin, look at the song of solomon, where an almah is refered to in very intimate and erotic terms.This message has been edited by ramoss, 01-14-2005 18:39 AMThis message has been edited by ramoss, 01-14-2005 18:43 AM

Where do you get the idea that 'Almah' refers to a harlot?Almah simply means 'young woman', she may or may not be a virgin.However, if someone wanted to highlight the fact that a girl was a virgin they would call her a 'bethulah'Here are another 6 examples of almah being used for a young woman. If you want to see Moses' sister as a harlot then God have mercy on your soul Genesis 24:43
Exodus 2:8
Proverbs 30:19
Psalm68:26
Song of Solomon 1:3 and 6:8Edited to change 'almah' to 'bethulah'.This message has been edited by Brian, 01-15-2005 02:21 AM

Brian, I agree there is two words used to call a woman a virgin, it used both words to describe Rebecca. It appears more correct of the two word choices almah was used to describe Mary, because it was using the word that would make this be both a young girl, and a virgin.If the word bethu^la^h would of been used the child could of been born by an old maid. Truly alma^h was the more descriptive correct word for virgin in relation to this sign given to the House of David. If a young damsel was going to give birth it wouldn't be a sign, the sign was a virgin that was a young damsel shall conceive and would be called Immanuel.kjv Isa 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.Gen 24:16 And the damsel5291 was very3966 fair2896 to look upon,4758 a virgin,1330 neither3808 had any man376 known3045 her: and she went down3381 to the well,5869 and filled4390 her pitcher,3537 and came up.Gen 24:43 Behold,2009 I595 stand5324 by5921 the well5869 of water;4325 and it shall come to pass,1961 that when the virgin5959 cometh forth3318 to draw7579 water, and I say559 to413 her, Give me, I pray thee,4994 a little4592 water4325 of thy pitcher4480, 3537 to drink;82485927 ‛alma^h
BDB Definition:
1) virgin, young woman
1a) of marriageable age
1b) maid or newly married
Part of Speech: noun feminine
A Related Word by BDB/Strong’s Number: from H5958
Same Word by TWOT Number: 1630bH1330

bethu^la^h
BDB Definition:
1) virgin
Part of Speech: noun feminine
A Related Word by BDB/Strong’s Number: passive participle of an unused root meaning to separate
Same Word by TWOT Number: 295aThis message has been edited by Tom, 01-14-2005 22:16 AM

Does Poor wee Miriam relate to PeeWee Herman? Google if needed.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Partly wrong. If they wanted to highlight she was a virgin, they would use 'Bethula'

Part of the problem with strong is he was coming from the Christian biblical definnitions. He has made quite a few mistakes.

Cheers Ramoss,Of course Imeant to type 'Bethulah' instead of almah, cheers.It was Friday night after all Brian.

HI Tom, But, an almah does not necessarily have to be a virgin.Are there any references where almah is used when the girl is undoubtedly a virgin?The hting is, the word 'bethulah' is used many times when the author specifically wants the reader to know that the girl was a virgin.Isaiah 62:5 For as a young man marrieth a virgin, so shall thy sons marry thee: and as the bridegroom rejoiceth over the bride, so shall thy God rejoice over thee.Whoever wrote Isaiah used the word bethulah here because he wanted to ensure that the reader knew that the gilr was a virgin. It would be unusual for a female in ancient Israel to have been an old maid. But the age of the female is not the issue. No.The sign was that a young woman would concieve, most likely Isaiah's wife the prophetess, and it is the child that is a sign.Also, how many times do you need to be informed that Jesus was not called Immanuel?Finally, if the Isaiah prophecy is relating to a virgin, then Jesus' birth is not the first virgin birth in the Bible. The female mentioned in 7:14 gave birth as a sign to Ahaz, therefore, Jesus' virgin birth is not that special.Brian.

In addition to Almah not exclusvely meaning virgin, the word it was translated to in the Septagaint (parthenos) does not exclusively mean virgin either.The translation into a greek of a woman that was raped in Genesis was
translated to Parthnos too.

Brian, My Hebrew concordance says Immanuel is the prophetic name of the Messiah. When one calls Jesus the Christ your acknowledging God with us. In Matthew chapter 1 verses 23-25 it talks of what the Lord Jesus would be called both. Jesus and Emmanuel (Jesus Christ).H6005
עמּנוּאל
‛imma^nu^'e^l
BDB Definition:
Immanuel = God with us or with us is God
1) symbolic and prophetic name of the Messiah, the Christ, prophesying that He would be born of a virgin and would be ‘God with us’
Part of Speech: noun proper masculine
A Related Word by BDB/Strong’s Number: from H5973 and H410 with a pronominal suffix inserted
Same Word by TWOT Number: 1640dG1694
Ἐμμανουήλ
Emmanouel
em-man-oo-ale'
Of Hebrew origin [H6005]; God with us; Emmanuel, a name of Christ: - Emmanuel.

HI Tom, Your concordance is incorrect then. If it is the name of the Messiah, then the Messiah can be found in Isaiah 8. As Jesus is NEVER called Immanuel then once again he cannot be the Messiah. This is not the meaning of the name Immanuel.The meaning is that God is with us in our purpose, He is on our side against our enemies if you like. It does not mean that God is literally going about the city in the form of a man interacting with humans. It means that God is with us in whatever venture we are on. In Matthew 1:21 it says that She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus,because he will save his people from their sins.Apparently he was to be called Jesus (Yahweh saves), and is called Jesus all through the new testament. But, where in the new testament does anyone qualify Matthew 1:23?The New Testament NEVER has anyone call Jesus by the name Immanuel.I also find it interesting that the author of Matthew has to explain the meaning of the name Immanuel to his audience.Brian.