Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
4 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,806 Year: 3,063/9,624 Month: 908/1,588 Week: 91/223 Day: 2/17 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Which Bible is Inerrant?
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 16 of 86 (215648)
06-09-2005 1:02 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Kraniet
06-09-2005 12:21 PM


Actually, most of the OT was written down much more recently than that, probably somewhere around 600BCE.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Kraniet, posted 06-09-2005 12:21 PM Kraniet has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by d_yankee, posted 06-25-2005 2:17 PM jar has replied

  
Kraniet
Inactive Member


Message 17 of 86 (215656)
06-09-2005 1:42 PM


well i must admit im not that sure about when it was written(looking it up now i see that it was written 800-200 BC). But still the jews and the hebrew religion is very old indeed and most of the stories are older than the OT itself.
edit: as to the question i belive that the bible is myths written down by men. It does not have anything to do with a God of any kind. Events in the bible may very well have happened but i bilevie it to be twisted stories and myths, and for "us" bad interpretation/translation have ruined any chance of understanding the meaning of those stories.
edit2: not saying that we cant make better translations and understad the stories for what they are.
This message has been edited by Kraniet, 06-09-2005 02:20 PM

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by d_yankee, posted 06-25-2005 2:22 PM Kraniet has not replied

  
deerbreh
Member (Idle past 2892 days)
Posts: 882
Joined: 06-22-2005


Message 18 of 86 (218745)
06-22-2005 5:24 PM


Inerrancy means "without error" - The Bible clearly is not.
Cases in point - There are many, I will cite just 2.
1) Elijah making the sun stand still - first of all, this implies geocentrism which we know is false, second, for the earth's rotation to stop - clearly all hell breaks loose and most life would have been wiped out.
2) Pi equals 3, according to I Kings:
7:23 And he made a molten sea, ten cubits from the one brim to the other: it was round all about, and his height was five cubits: and a line of thirty cubits did compass it round about.
(Some apologists say that it was hexagonal and that then the circumference /diameter ratio works out to 3 - I don't know whether that is true but the verse clearly says it was "round all about" and in my book round is round, not hexagonal).
I actually don't understand why the Bible has to be inerrant. Much of it clearly is myth in the "epic myth" sense - a story that is not literally true but reveals a Truth. To me it is almost blasphemus to suggest literal truth. Furthermore, who is to say which of the ancient texts is "scripture" and which is not? Do we really think the early church was free of political maneuvering when it came to deciding what was "in" and what was "out"? Did Paul intend for his letters to be scripture? I seriously doubt it and think he would have been appalled at the thought.
This message has been edited by deerbreh, 06-22-2005 05:25 PM

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by Phat, posted 06-22-2005 6:11 PM deerbreh has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 19 of 86 (218757)
06-22-2005 6:11 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by deerbreh
06-22-2005 5:24 PM


Re: Inerrancy means "without error" - The Bible clearly is not.
To me it is almost blasphemus to suggest literal truth. Furthermore, who is to say which of the ancient texts is "scripture" and which is not? Do we really think the early church was free of political maneuvering when it came to deciding what was "in" and what was "out"? Did Paul intend for his letters to be scripture?
Good points, but I think that we need to establish what truth really is. If the origin of truth really is from God revealed incarnately through the man Christ Jesus, we cannot take any of our human knowledge as a source and a standard of comparison. Yes, humans are human and back in the day there was a lot of political and societal manuevering. That is a given. The real issue is just how much of a truth WAS and IS Jesus? For IF He is who He says He is and IF there really is a sort of a spiritual war and disconnect between human wisdom/truth and Gods truth, all sorts of possibilities could arise.
Almost mystical/supernatural, I think.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by deerbreh, posted 06-22-2005 5:24 PM deerbreh has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by Deut. 32.8, posted 06-22-2005 6:22 PM Phat has replied

  
Deut. 32.8
Inactive Member


Message 20 of 86 (218760)
06-22-2005 6:22 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Phat
06-22-2005 6:11 PM


Re: Inerrancy means "without error" - The Bible clearly is not.
Much worse. If you choose to posit a supernatural entity, there is no possibility of a viable selection criteria whatsoever.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Phat, posted 06-22-2005 6:11 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by Phat, posted 06-23-2005 11:18 AM Deut. 32.8 has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 21 of 86 (218940)
06-23-2005 11:18 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by Deut. 32.8
06-22-2005 6:22 PM


Innerrent in meaning: A Leap Of Faith
My point is that if human wisdom is used as the selection criteria, God Himself can never shine in ones life. Have you not heard of the "leap" of faith? Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the
evidence of things not seen. (or reasoned. Or proven. Or analysed.)
If humans actually are in some sort of a spiritual "war" or test, and if trusting God rather than trying to raise out of it all is our duty, Human wisdom is actually a tool of the enemy. (I know that this does not sit well with most of you)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Deut. 32.8, posted 06-22-2005 6:22 PM Deut. 32.8 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by Brian, posted 06-23-2005 11:41 AM Phat has replied
 Message 24 by deerbreh, posted 06-25-2005 12:31 AM Phat has not replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4958 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 22 of 86 (218952)
06-23-2005 11:41 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by Phat
06-23-2005 11:18 AM


Re: Innerrent in meaning: A Leap Of Faith
My point is that if human wisdom is used as the selection criteria, God Himself can never shine in ones life.
But why shouldn't human wisdom be used as the selection criteria?
Have you not heard of the "leap" of faith? Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the
evidence of things not seen. (or reasoned. Or proven. Or analysed.)
But why even bother taking this leap of faith, what is the point?
If humans actually are in some sort of a spiritual "war" or test, and if trusting God rather than trying to raise out of it all is our duty, Human wisdom is actually a tool of the enemy. (I know that this does not sit well with most of you)
And if this spiritual war is nothing but a fantasy you have wasted your whole life playing a real time D&D game.
Back on topic, which particular Bible should we use as a basis of our leap?
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Phat, posted 06-23-2005 11:18 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by deerbreh, posted 06-23-2005 1:58 PM Brian has not replied
 Message 25 by Phat, posted 06-25-2005 7:07 AM Brian has not replied

  
deerbreh
Member (Idle past 2892 days)
Posts: 882
Joined: 06-22-2005


Message 23 of 86 (219017)
06-23-2005 1:58 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Brian
06-23-2005 11:41 AM


Re: Innerrent in meaning: A Leap Of Faith
Brian writes:
But why even bother taking this leap of faith, what is the point?
One takes the "leap of faith" because there are mysteries for which we have no explanation. One just goes on, trusting that they are doing the right thing, even though we can't possibly figure everything out. This is particularly true about our relationships with other people. That's the "leap".
brian writes:
Back on topic, which particular Bible should we use as a basis of our leap?
Which Bible we use - or whether we use any Bible or some other book or source of revelation, is going to depend on the person. Hopefully we use lots of different sources, including nature and most importantly, other people. A hermit may read a lot of books and commune with nature but he won't learn much about how to get along with people until he takes the "leap" and makes the attempt.
This message has been edited by AdminPhat, 06-23-2005 02:29 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Brian, posted 06-23-2005 11:41 AM Brian has not replied

  
deerbreh
Member (Idle past 2892 days)
Posts: 882
Joined: 06-22-2005


Message 24 of 86 (219471)
06-25-2005 12:31 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by Phat
06-23-2005 11:18 AM


Re: Innerrent in meaning: A Leap Of Faith
"Human wisdom is actually a tool of the enemy. (I know that this does not sit well with most of you)"
Blasphemy. If you believe God created man and his creation is good, how do you get to that viewpoint? Human wisdom comes from God. What kind of God creates man with a wonderful brain capable of rational thought and then punishes him for using it? A cynical God.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Phat, posted 06-23-2005 11:18 AM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 25 of 86 (219494)
06-25-2005 7:07 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by Brian
06-23-2005 11:41 AM


Re: Innerrent in meaning: A Leap Of Faith
Brian writes:
But why shouldn't human wisdom be used as the selection criteria?
Look at History. We have found errors in the way that History has been taught. Human nature? Look at any of the movietone news reels of the fifties. Now look at the news today. Human interpretation and utilization of psychology has shaped the way that information (not necessarily facts) is presented. Getting back to my original premise, what IF we ARE in some sort of spiritual war dynamic. Would not everything possible be used to discredit or disprove the story of Jesus Christ?
Inerrency means sticking to the facts. How do we know that human scholars, perhaps out to make a name for themselves consciously and out to disprove Jesus Christ subconsciously have toyed with the facts? Some suggest perpetuation of a myth to control humanity. I won't disagree with the control part, but the myth may be real.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Brian, posted 06-23-2005 11:41 AM Brian has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by ramoss, posted 06-25-2005 8:32 AM Phat has replied

  
ramoss
Member (Idle past 611 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 26 of 86 (219497)
06-25-2005 8:32 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by Phat
06-25-2005 7:07 AM


Re: Innerrent in meaning: A Leap Of Faith
And what are the facts? Different people claim different facts with their claims of innerrency.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Phat, posted 06-25-2005 7:07 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by Phat, posted 06-25-2005 12:48 PM ramoss has replied
 Message 29 by sidelined, posted 06-25-2005 1:04 PM ramoss has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 27 of 86 (219536)
06-25-2005 12:48 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by ramoss
06-25-2005 8:32 AM


Re: Innerrent in meaning: A Leap Of Faith
ramoss writes:
And what are the facts? Different people claim different facts with their claims of innerrency.
Thats another thing! I have read many of the reasons why the Bible is fallible. I must say that I respect some of the people who believe this way, such as Brian. On the other hand, I have read some respected apologist literature and those guys tell a different tale. If they were a bunch of backwoods Arkansas fundies, I would dismiss the claims of apologetic proof entirely. The fact is, many many authors have also made quite a claim for Biblical soundness.
So I ask myself, why such a controversy? Are the educated apologists such as Norman Geisler, Peter Kreeft, C.S. Lewis, Simon Greenleaf( a former attorney) and many others so dead wrong? It almost seems as if there is a vendetta...call it a spiritual war!
Its like trying to listen to what one guy says and have another guy whispering in your ear "don't believe him!" "He has a history of mental illness!" and then showing me facts of such.
I question things, but what I have seen in this innerency/fairy tale debate leaves me only with the conclusion that there is no prrof academically either way.
So I again look to human nature. It is true that we have progressed in many areas of our capabilities. We can cure or prevent many diseases. We can understand the human mind in ways that we never could before. Yet...yet we cannot stop war. We cannot discourage greed. Murder is at an alltime high. People are as restless as ever.
Yes, the Bible itself is just an old book of chronicles. The issue behind innerrency is tthe belief of whether or not there is a God and of whether or not humans need Him. Belief leads credibilility to innerrent intent.
If we ask ourselves the motive behind belief in an innerrent message, we must then ask ourselves the motive for attempting to disprove the same.
Marshall MacLuhan writes:
Personally, I have a great faith in the resiliency and adaptability of man, and I tend to look to our tomorrows with a surge of excitement and hope. I feel that we're standing on the threshold of a liberating and exhilarating world in which the human tribe can become truly one family and man's consciousness can be freed from the shackles of mechanical culture and enabled to roam the cosmos. I have a deep and abiding belief in man's potential to grow and learn, to plumb the depths of his own being and to learn the secret songs that orchestrate the universe. We live in a transitional era of profound pain and tragic identity quest, but the agony of our age is the labor pain of rebirth.
I expect to see the coming decades transform the planet into an art form; the new man, linked in a cosmic harmony that transcends time and space, will sensuously caress and mold and pattern every facet of the terrestrial artifact as if it were a work of art, and man himself will become an organic art form.
So will Ye be as gods? Is the old fable in any way prophetic about the attitude of human potential and destiny?
Or is spiritual truth a human concept that has outlived its usefullness?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by ramoss, posted 06-25-2005 8:32 AM ramoss has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by ramoss, posted 06-25-2005 12:53 PM Phat has not replied

  
ramoss
Member (Idle past 611 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 28 of 86 (219538)
06-25-2005 12:53 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by Phat
06-25-2005 12:48 PM


Re: Innerrent in meaning: A Leap Of Faith
You know what, you seem to accept who you want to accept, yet totally ignore all the others. I mean, trying to use Simon Greenleaf as an athority is rather silly.. the state of understanding the nature of evidence has improved drastically in the 200 years since he died.
And yes, they are dead wrong, particualrly Simon

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Phat, posted 06-25-2005 12:48 PM Phat has not replied

  
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5907 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 29 of 86 (219539)
06-25-2005 1:04 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by ramoss
06-25-2005 8:32 AM


Re: Innerrent in meaning: A Leap Of Faith
ramoss
Different people claim different facts with their claims of innerrency.
Is it not telling that something innerent can be so manipulated?
We are told of this creator,God who it is said,having made a marvelously structured universe of vast expanse and subtle wonders of the quantum and all the manifest interactions resulting from it along with the fascinating framework revealed by relatvity, is singularly unable to communicate in clear unambiguos terms the meaning of it all?
I doubt there is anything to it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by ramoss, posted 06-25-2005 8:32 AM ramoss has not replied

  
d_yankee
Inactive Member


Message 30 of 86 (219546)
06-25-2005 1:46 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by jar
04-11-2005 2:41 PM


Re: The books of lists...
Huh? "MOST" Christians? You must live in a small secluded place or something as "MOST" Christians believe the Bible to be INFALLIBLE. "SOME", "FEW" Christians may believe it has errors...but that "SOME" don't understand what they are reading.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by jar, posted 04-11-2005 2:41 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by jar, posted 06-25-2005 1:51 PM d_yankee has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024