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Author Topic:   Lessons of Genesis (B'resheet)
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 31 of 39 (197648)
04-08-2005 9:51 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by jar
04-07-2005 10:42 AM


Re: Legends
quote:
But J&E were not creating new material. They were recording older oral tales and those tales form the basis for much of the OT.
You assume. You have no way of knowing how much was folk tale and how much was their own creation.
Then when J&E were merged, again you don't know how much was from each and how much was the creation of the author.
quote:
Much of Genesis could be retitled "Tales of the Founding Fathers". It is a history of defining a people.
The completed work that we see today was trying to define a people, bringing all the exiles together.
At a time when J&E were separate, I don't feel that the purpose of the stories were used to define a people, it was just their oral stories as passed down and changed with each teller of the tale. You would need to show me that the intent of individual folk tales are to define a people.
During and after the exile, the author needed to bring the remnants back together. After the exile is when the combined product was given authority by King Artaxerxes (Ezra 7:21-26). Thisis when they truly needed to define themselves as a people.

"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by jar, posted 04-07-2005 10:42 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by jar, posted 04-08-2005 11:59 AM purpledawn has replied
 Message 35 by ramoss, posted 04-08-2005 5:21 PM purpledawn has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 32 of 39 (197677)
04-08-2005 11:59 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by purpledawn
04-08-2005 9:51 AM


Re: Legends
I don't feel that the purpose of the stories were used to define a people, it was just their oral stories as passed down and changed with each teller of the tale.
What do oral histories do other than define a people?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by purpledawn, posted 04-08-2005 9:51 AM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by purpledawn, posted 04-08-2005 3:43 PM jar has replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 33 of 39 (197703)
04-08-2005 3:43 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by jar
04-08-2005 11:59 AM


Re: Legends
quote:
What do oral histories do other than define a people?
Lots of things define a people, but were they created with the intent to define a people?
Folk tales are created by various people accumulating and changing over time.
The way the Torah is put together, the author did have the intent of defining the returning exiles as a group.

"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by jar, posted 04-08-2005 11:59 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by jar, posted 04-08-2005 3:54 PM purpledawn has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 34 of 39 (197705)
04-08-2005 3:54 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by purpledawn
04-08-2005 3:43 PM


We may well be in agreement.
The way the Torah is put together, the author did have the intent of defining the returning exiles as a group.
I agree although with the reservation that at each redaction the purpose was likely slightly different.
I was addressing the older original tales that were later codified in the Tannaka. Remember, the authors of the Torah were working with much earlier material and much of that material was shaped during the gathering of certain Semetic clans into what became the Hebrews.
On example is clear looking at the passages listed initially. If we look at them, we find that the customs and morals of the furriners were pretty much the same as Abram who, if he existed, had the title of Exalted Leader (or something similar). This implies some leadership position that was acknowledged by at least some people. It is these stories of Abram and Isaac that create the basis for what later became the Hebrews.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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 Message 33 by purpledawn, posted 04-08-2005 3:43 PM purpledawn has not replied

  
ramoss
Member (Idle past 612 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 35 of 39 (197721)
04-08-2005 5:21 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by purpledawn
04-08-2005 9:51 AM


Re: Legends
Much of Gensesis is found to be adapted from the Ugartic bible, as a matter of fact. It was rewritten so that all the names of the various gods in the Ugartic bible refered to one god, but many of the passages in the torah are identical even.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by purpledawn, posted 04-08-2005 9:51 AM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by purpledawn, posted 04-08-2005 7:52 PM ramoss has replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 36 of 39 (197779)
04-08-2005 7:52 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by ramoss
04-08-2005 5:21 PM


Re: Legends
quote:
Much of Gensesis is found to be adapted from the Ugartic bible, as a matter of fact.
So Christians and Muslims followed the Hebrew tradition of borrowing to create religion.
Very interesting!

"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by ramoss, posted 04-08-2005 5:21 PM ramoss has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by ramoss, posted 04-08-2005 8:52 PM purpledawn has replied

  
ramoss
Member (Idle past 612 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 37 of 39 (197793)
04-08-2005 8:52 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by purpledawn
04-08-2005 7:52 PM


Re: Legends
Indeed it is.
The concept of using the names of another religion to assimulate into the new religion was copied too. I believe the 10 commandments had a precursor in the Egyptian book of the dead too.
More information on how understanding the ugartic bible can help understand the meaning of various parts of the Torah can be found
at http://www.phoenicia.org/ugarbibl.html. It can planly show how at least some of the stories were borrowed and adapted from earlier religions.. of course, with their own twist to make them uniquely Hebrew instead.
It should not come to a surprise to anybody that the formulative years of a religion has aspects that are borrowed from the culture around it at the time of it's formation. The discovery of the Ugartic bible gives us a peek into how it influenced early Judaism.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by purpledawn, posted 04-08-2005 7:52 PM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by purpledawn, posted 04-09-2005 7:37 AM ramoss has replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 38 of 39 (197873)
04-09-2005 7:37 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by ramoss
04-08-2005 8:52 PM


Re: Legends
So then the New Age Spirituality which seems to pull from various religious concepts is just following tradition.
I read the link you provided, it is very interesting.
Following the roots!

"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by ramoss, posted 04-08-2005 8:52 PM ramoss has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by ramoss, posted 04-10-2005 12:02 PM purpledawn has not replied

  
ramoss
Member (Idle past 612 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 39 of 39 (198050)
04-10-2005 12:02 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by purpledawn
04-09-2005 7:37 AM


Re: Legends
Plagerism when it comes to spirtual beliefs is a time honored tradition.
People, when rejecting the concepts of their previous religion are not going to abandon everything. They will keep what is comfortable, and what makes sense to them. The form might be given new meanings, but the external form is like an old shoe that fits.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by purpledawn, posted 04-09-2005 7:37 AM purpledawn has not replied

  
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