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Author Topic:   Did They Write About Jesus in the Law, the Prophets, and the Psalms?
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 286 of 305 (204252)
05-02-2005 6:30 AM
Reply to: Message 274 by Faith
05-01-2005 3:26 PM


Virgin Etymology
As I showed in Message 239, the Greeks did not translate the Hebrew into the word virgin. You keep using the word virgin like it has only had the meaning of presexual. It didn't and in our dictionaries today still doesn't.
Virgin Etymology
Today we use the word in that fashion when concerning men and women. You are the one applying a modern meaning to a very old word in a dead language.
From all the posts concerning the "virgin" debate, the three disputed words (in Hebrew, Greek, and Latin) all roughly mean the same thing as I showed in Message 239.
We have a lot more words to choose from today than they did centuries ago.
Gay went from "full of joy or mirth" to a male homosexual.
Etymology of Gay
Bottom line is that you need to show in the context of the writing itself that a meaning of presexual is intended by Isaiah, otherwise all your word meanings are just academic.

"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

This message is a reply to:
 Message 274 by Faith, posted 05-01-2005 3:26 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 290 by arachnophilia, posted 05-02-2005 1:21 PM purpledawn has not replied
 Message 297 by Faith, posted 05-02-2005 8:53 PM purpledawn has not replied

ramoss
Member (Idle past 612 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 287 of 305 (204255)
05-02-2005 8:21 AM
Reply to: Message 264 by Faith
05-01-2005 4:42 AM


Re: Finale on the almah parthenos virgin flap
I see in your fuming, and ignoring of the facts, you still fail to address the issue about how the ancient translators of the Torah
refered to a woman who had been raped as 'parthenos', nor did you
address the issue where a number of the ancient greek writers used the term parthenos to refer to women who were not virgins.
Do you want to do that before you blow a gasket?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 264 by Faith, posted 05-01-2005 4:42 AM Faith has not replied

doctrbill
Member (Idle past 2764 days)
Posts: 1174
From: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Joined: 01-08-2001


Message 288 of 305 (204278)
05-02-2005 10:14 AM
Reply to: Message 281 by Faith
05-02-2005 2:50 AM


Re: Finale on the almah parthenos virgin flap
Faith writes:
The Bibles before this modernist insanity ALL had "virgin."
And just when, In your opinion, did "this modernist insanity" begin?
ALL the translations had "virgin" for Isaiah 7:14 until the revisionist Bibles came along.
Even if this is true, (of which I am uncertain) it does not mean that modern translations are wrong. Virgin does not necessarily mean the same thing today that it did four hundred years ago. In case you haven't noticed by now, all of the words we have been discussing: almah, parthenos, and virgin, may be used in ways other than to describe an individual's level of sexual experience. Besides, it wouldn't matter to me if she was a 'virgin.' It wouldn't matter to me if the writer believed she got pregnant without the benefit of sex.
What matters in this case is whether these words are unequivocal, and they are not.
... modernist prejudice.
Good oxymoron!
self-appointed scholars
Such as yourself?
... abandoned the knowledge of the previous two millennia,
Or built upon it.
your list is all modern translations. So they don't count.
The meaning of the Hebrew text is the bottom line here. And all translations are modern by comparison.
Bethulah is unequivocal. Almah is not.

Theology is the science of Dominion.
- - - My God is your god's Boss - - -

This message is a reply to:
 Message 281 by Faith, posted 05-02-2005 2:50 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 289 by arachnophilia, posted 05-02-2005 1:19 PM doctrbill has replied
 Message 291 by Faith, posted 05-02-2005 3:24 PM doctrbill has replied

arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1343 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 289 of 305 (204330)
05-02-2005 1:19 PM
Reply to: Message 288 by doctrbill
05-02-2005 10:14 AM


Re: Finale on the almah parthenos virgin flap
The meaning of the Hebrew text is the bottom line here. And all translations are modern by comparison.
except the septuagint, which is actually older.

אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
 Message 288 by doctrbill, posted 05-02-2005 10:14 AM doctrbill has replied

Replies to this message:
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1343 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 290 of 305 (204331)
05-02-2005 1:21 PM
Reply to: Message 286 by purpledawn
05-02-2005 6:30 AM


Re: Virgin Etymology
Gay went from "full of joy or mirth" to a male homosexual.
Etymology of Gay
to "lame" or "bad" too. in less than 50 years, i might add.

אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
 Message 286 by purpledawn, posted 05-02-2005 6:30 AM purpledawn has not replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 291 of 305 (204363)
05-02-2005 3:24 PM
Reply to: Message 288 by doctrbill
05-02-2005 10:14 AM


Re: Finale on the almah parthenos virgin flap
quote:
Bethulah is unequivocal. Almah is not.
TALK TO THE SEPTUAGINT TRANSLATORS!! You are not arguing with me, you are arguing with them. THEY ought to know their own language!
The modern translations have nothing to do with changing meanings of words. They are done by self-appointed scholars, not men with any church authority whatever, and men with some influence by modernist prejudices as well. The King James by contrast was done by I think a hundred or more translators all working independently but also reviewing each others' work, from ALL the manuscripts available at the time, the original Greek and Hebrew as well as Syrian, German, Latin and other translations. And these were men chosen by CHURCH authorities. That is also how the Septuagint was done, by highly respected Jewish Torah scholars.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 288 by doctrbill, posted 05-02-2005 10:14 AM doctrbill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 292 by purpledawn, posted 05-02-2005 4:31 PM Faith has replied
 Message 294 by ramoss, posted 05-02-2005 5:23 PM Faith has replied
 Message 302 by doctrbill, posted 05-02-2005 9:37 PM Faith has replied

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 292 of 305 (204372)
05-02-2005 4:31 PM
Reply to: Message 291 by Faith
05-02-2005 3:24 PM


Re: Finale on the almah parthenos virgin flap
Please address Message 286
Bottom line is that you need to show in the context of the writing itself that a meaning of presexual is intended by Isaiah, otherwise all your word meanings are just academic.
As you have stated many times, none of the words means exclusively presexual. Therefore only the context can determine the intent of the author.
Please explain how the prophecy in Isaiah speaks of a presexual woman who is to conceive without human sperm.

"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

This message is a reply to:
 Message 291 by Faith, posted 05-02-2005 3:24 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 300 by Faith, posted 05-02-2005 9:10 PM purpledawn has not replied

ramoss
Member (Idle past 612 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 293 of 305 (204384)
05-02-2005 5:21 PM
Reply to: Message 289 by arachnophilia
05-02-2005 1:19 PM


Re: Finale on the almah parthenos virgin flap
Which of course, they used the term 'Parthenos' , not only for the young woman in Isaiah 7:14, but also for Dianah, after she was raped.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 289 by arachnophilia, posted 05-02-2005 1:19 PM arachnophilia has not replied

ramoss
Member (Idle past 612 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 294 of 305 (204385)
05-02-2005 5:23 PM
Reply to: Message 291 by Faith
05-02-2005 3:24 PM


Re: Finale on the almah parthenos virgin flap
You have not addressed the point that Parthnos was describing Dinah in Genesis, after she was raped.
I guess you wish to ignore that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 291 by Faith, posted 05-02-2005 3:24 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 295 by purpledawn, posted 05-02-2005 6:05 PM ramoss has replied
 Message 298 by Faith, posted 05-02-2005 8:56 PM ramoss has not replied

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 295 of 305 (204391)
05-02-2005 6:05 PM
Reply to: Message 294 by ramoss
05-02-2005 5:23 PM


English Torah
Obviously Faith is not going to discuss our serious points.
So while we are waiting, I have another question for you.
Do you know when the Torah or entire Tanach was translated into English?
Was it ever translated into Latin?
I'm guessing that Faith would not accept the translation by the Jewish Publication Society.
14 Therefore the Lord Himself shall give you a sign: behold, the young woman shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
What Faith fails to realize is that the modern translations have changed because the meaning of the word "virgin" has a different usage today than its earlier meaning.
I tried to show that in Message 286 but Faith has yet to address that post.
Even the KJV revised words over time due to changes in culture and word usage. Book of Isaiah KJV revisions
This message has been edited by purpledawn, 05-02-2005 06:44 PM

"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

This message is a reply to:
 Message 294 by ramoss, posted 05-02-2005 5:23 PM ramoss has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 296 by ramoss, posted 05-02-2005 7:25 PM purpledawn has not replied
 Message 299 by Faith, posted 05-02-2005 9:02 PM purpledawn has not replied

ramoss
Member (Idle past 612 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 296 of 305 (204403)
05-02-2005 7:25 PM
Reply to: Message 295 by purpledawn
05-02-2005 6:05 PM


Re: English Torah
I don't know when the earliest one was. .. I know even the one that the JPS did in 1917 relying heavily on the KJV. The one in 1955 I think was pretty much from scratch.

This message is a reply to:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 297 of 305 (204430)
05-02-2005 8:53 PM
Reply to: Message 286 by purpledawn
05-02-2005 6:30 AM


Re: Virgin Etymology
As I showed in Message 239, the Greeks did not translate the Hebrew into the word virgin. You keep using the word virgin like it has only had the meaning of presexual. It didn't and in our dictionaries today still doesn't.
Look, I have acknowledged many times that all the words in all the languages in qusetion have shades of meaning -- shades of meaning that interestingly almost all imply sexual purity anyway. But the point is that the translators of the Septuagint chose the ONLY Greek word that DOES specifically refer to a sexually inexperienced girl --even if it also has less specific references as well. *NONE* of the other possible Greek words that could translate "almah" has that specefic reference to a "presexual" girl at ALL.
And I have *also* acknowledged that that fact is not definitive, because "parthenos" does have other shades of meaning -- again, most implying sexual purity in any case -- BUT keeping in mind that it is nevertheless the ONLY Greek word that specifically refers to a sexually inexperienced girl. And even if later translations use words that have some slight ambiguity as well, there has never been a doubt that sexual purity has been meant by them all until very recently when the debunkery brigade took off in earnest trying to turn a silk purse into a sow's ear.
For heaven's sake, Christians have affirmed this specific meaning for centuries. What IS your problem?
Virgin Etymology Today we use the word in that fashion when concerning men and women. You are the one applying a modern meaning to a very old word in a dead language.
No, I have only been referring to historical usage.
From all the posts concerning the "virgin" debate, the three disputed words (in Hebrew, Greek, and Latin) all roughly mean the same thing as I showed in Message 239.
We have a lot more words to choose from today than they did centuries ago.
What does anything TODAY have to do with what the Septuagint translators meant? You aren't making any sense.
Bottom line is that you need to show in the context of the writing itself that a meaning of presexual is intended by Isaiah, otherwise all your word meanings are just academic.
I don't have to prove a thing. The history of Christian translation and usage proves it.
Your Message 239:
Remembering that the actual word "virgin" did not exist in the OT. So in Isaiah 7:14 we have the "almah" which means a young woman of marriageable age or newly married.
"Almah" was then translated to the Greek "parthenos" which means a marriageable maiden or a woman who has not had sex with a man.
In the Latin "almah" or "parthenos" was then translated with the word "virgo" which means an unmarried woman.
Now when we look in Webster's at the word "virgin" we have:
virgin n. (OFr.- L. virgo a maiden)
1. a person, esp. a woman, who has not had sexual intercourse
2. an unmarried girl or woman
I see, the Greek "parthenos" which can ONLY mean a woman who has not had sex with a man is translated into the Latin by a word that MIGHT mean something else and you make that into an excuse to believe it wasn't intended to mean a woman who has not had sex with a man.
What kind of nitpicking stupidity is all this? "Unmarried woman" in those days MEANT a sexually inexperienced woman anyway. Good grief!
Just because the word COULD mean a woman who has not had sex, doesn't mean that was the way it was used.
No, 2000 years of translation and usage prove THAT. That is exactly how it was used and understood by all concerned to be used that way. Only modern debunkers question it. The New Testament writers had no doubt what it meant and the Latin translators had no doubt what it meant and the Syrian translators and all the translators down to the 19th century or so, when a bunch of revisionist know-it-alls decided to change the meaning of the centuries and now an army of dolts follow their lead.
I don't care WHAT shades of meaning are POSSIBLE, there is only ONE meaning that has been understood for 2000 years. That's what you are arguing with, what the Church has taught for all that time and people have believed for all that time. It is completely consistent with all the texts, all of them. You simply want to force your own prejudice on those centuries of believers.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 286 by purpledawn, posted 05-02-2005 6:30 AM purpledawn has not replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 298 of 305 (204432)
05-02-2005 8:56 PM
Reply to: Message 294 by ramoss
05-02-2005 5:23 PM


Re: Finale on the almah parthenos virgin flap
You have not addressed the point that Parthnos was describing Dinah in Genesis, after she was raped.
I guess you wish to ignore that.
I did address it. First of all I doubted that you could find the vferse where it says that and you still haven't produced it and someobdy else here said it wasn't there, but in any case I acknowledgede to that and many other references that "parthenos" has shades of meaning.
What do you want, blood?
READ FOR A CHANGE! YOU ARE A SORRY EXCUSE FOR A DEBATER, BUT PAR FOR THE COURSE ON THIS UTTERLY BENIGHTED SHIP OF FOOLS!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 294 by ramoss, posted 05-02-2005 5:23 PM ramoss has not replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 299 of 305 (204435)
05-02-2005 9:02 PM
Reply to: Message 295 by purpledawn
05-02-2005 6:05 PM


Re: English Torah
I'm guessing that Faith would not accept the translation by the Jewish Publication Society.
Somebody already proposed a Jewish Bible and of course I wouldn't accept it. The Jews have an aggressively determined program to prove that "almah" does not mean "virgin" although it was Jewish translators of the Septuagint that made the connection in the first place.
14 Therefore the Lord Himself shall give you a sign: behold, the young woman shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
Some modern translations ahve this too. see Doctorbill's exchange with me. He tried to say all of them do, but he's wrong and I proved it.
What Faith fails to realize is that the modern translations have changed because the meaning of the word "virgin" has a different usage today than its earlier meaning.
Now THAT is really a screaming idiocy. It has always meant a literal sexually inexperienced young woman, but now it means something else than that??? As if what it NOW means has anything to do with what it meant THEN which is the point!!! If the words have changed then obvviously what is needed is today's word that means a sexually inexperienced young woman, not the opposite. What is the matter with you people???

This message is a reply to:
 Message 295 by purpledawn, posted 05-02-2005 6:05 PM purpledawn has not replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 300 of 305 (204439)
05-02-2005 9:10 PM
Reply to: Message 292 by purpledawn
05-02-2005 4:31 PM


Re: Finale on the almah parthenos virgin flap
As you have stated many times, none of the words means exclusively presexual. Therefore only the context can determine the intent of the author.
Please explain how the prophecy in Isaiah speaks of a presexual woman who is to conceive without human sperm.
I said I haven't studied it yet to know how the passage is structured, but I have the grace to believe honest teachers who have taught that it refers to the virgin conception and birth of Jesus Christ as well as something in Ahaz' time. Sorry you lack that grace.

This message is a reply to:
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