Exodus Part One: Hebrews/Israelites in Egypt

The link (2 actually) is given in this post:
http://EvC Forum: Egyptology Sets Up A Straw Man -->EvC Forum: Egyptology Sets Up A Straw ManSince you replied to it, you must have read the message.

You assume Ahmose was a New Kingdom Pharoah.The link does [edit] not [end edit] contain "official New Kingdom language".From your link: "After this (his majesty) proceeded to Retenu, to vent his wrath throughout the lands""Retenu" is Palestine. What evidence exists that a Pharoah in c.1580 BC vented wrath there ?RMThis message has been edited by Ray Martinez, 05-25-2005 02:51 PMThis message has been edited by Ray Martinez, 05-25-2005 04:20 PM

Ahmose was probably not crowned in 1580 - but the event referred to is his pursuit of the Hyksos into southern Palestine. And if you want to try to introduce your chronology here then I strongly suggest hat you start a topic to discuss it. I am certainly not going to take it seriosuly until it is laid out and supported by real evidence.Moreover, if Moses wrote Exodus why would he not follow the form of an autobiography ? What official documents do you have in mind that never named the Pharoah and why would Moses follow that form instead ?

The Hyksos fled by ships after negotiating their release from power. I totally agree.But I want to wait for Brian as he has two related topics now in progress. Because he wrote what God told him to write. The genius of the Torah reflects the genius of God. This is the claim ALL of the Bible was written under. Thanks for asking.I will get back to this as I have to suddenly go off-line.RMThis message has been edited by Ray Martinez, 05-25-2005 03:01 PMThis message has been edited by Ray Martinez, 05-25-2005 03:02 PM

However the Hyksos fled (and I have not investigated that) it is accepted that they retreated to Sharuhen.And you can understand why Ahmose might wish to continue the war rather than allowing the Hyksos to rebuild. And it is certain that someoen attacked Palestien in that period.
The location of Sharuhen is uncertain but Tel Ajjul is likely - it also is named in the Bible (Joshua 19:6)

You mean other than the Bible ?Also, please define "direct evidence" ?RM

What is Passover? - Jewish Holidays "A papyrus dating from the end of the Old Kingdom was found in Egypt in the early 19th century. (Footnote 6) It is an account of an Egypt suddenly bereft of leadership. Violence is rampant. Foreign invaders are everywhere, with no one to hold them in check. The natural order of things has come to a crashing standstill. Slaves have disappeared and taken all the wealth of Egypt with them. Based on its literary style, it seems to be an eye-witness account of Egypt not long after the dissolution of the Old Kingdom. Its author, an Egyptian named Ipuwer, writes in the document below:

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Plague is throughout the land. Blood is everywhere. (2:5)

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The river is blood (2:10)

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That is our water! That is our happiness! What shall we do in respect thereof? All is ruin! (3:10-13)

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Trees are destroyed. (4:14)

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No fruit or herbs are found . . . (6:1)

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Forsooth, grain has perished on every side. (6:3)

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The land is not light [dark]. (9:11)

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Nile overflows [bringing the harvest], yet no one ploughs for him. (2:3)

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No craftsmen work, the enemies of the land have spoilt its crafts. (9:6)

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Gold and lapus lazuli, silver and malachite, camelian and bronze . . . are fastened on the neck of female slaves. (3:2)"The site pasted above is the best overview which reflects my position.Of course the first person to correlate the Ipuwer account matching the book of Exodus was Velikovsky.Why did it take until 1952 before somebody published the obvious ?Answer: Proof of bias of atheist Egyptology, which ASSUMES the Bible incorrect as they have no interest in establishing the truth therein lest the Deity is substantiated as existing.There is no doubt that this is an eyewitness account.Critics assert contrary to the text as is the handling of all evidence which supports the Bible.Funny how Darwinists can deduce obscure fossil scraps to be as needed but the matching of Ipuwer and Exodus is suddenly incomprehensible.RMThis message has been edited by Ray Martinez, 05-25-2005 06:07 PM

As I've mentioned elsewhere, there are at least two other interpretations. Isn't the end of the Old Kingdom years before the Exodus? I can't keep all these disputed dates straight in my head

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archaeological remains. the stuff i want you to show me pictures of.

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אָרַח

Hi Ray, Direct evidence would be something that is identifiable as 'Israelite/Hebrew'. Any artefact would do, something such as pottery, tools, house types, weapons, clothing, religous buidings, shrines (anything cultic in fact).I'll get to David over the weekend, we have relatives stayiing for a few days. I'll post earlier if I can, if not, normal service will be resumed from Monday.Cheers.Brian.

Okay, we are well into the topic and we have no direct evidence of Hebrews/Israelites in Egypt during the 'exodus period'.Do we proceed by introducing circumstantial evidence, or are there any other suggestions about how we continue?Brian.

Frankly, I think you're beating the proverbial Dead Horse. No one has been able to produce any direct or even circumstantial evidence for the Exodus as described in Biblical accounts.As long as this is going nowhere quickly, I'd like to see a little good come from it.There was an event at around 1500BCE that may well have contributed to major demographic and political changes in the area. How much is known about the effects along the Eastern Med mainland that were caused by the explosion of Santorini?

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Hi, Jar, the odd thing about the Santorini eruption (circa 1615-1645B.C.) is how little impact it made on Middle East peoples. Apart from the Minoans, you would think it passed unobserved. With a VEI (Volcanic Explosivity Index) of 6-6.9, or approximately the size of Krakatau in 1883,with the widespread effects there, and ashfall deposits found as wide afield as Egypt through to eastern Turkey, surely nations would have experienced atmospheric effects at the very least. Acid ice-cores dating to 1615 B.C. were recovered from Greenland drilling programs, indicating the potential for crop changes. But, the Hebrews in Egypt never noticed them. But, then, they never noticed the Pyramids, the Sphinx, annual flooding of the Nile, canal irrigation,large ships, even the development of superb glass-making or metal-working. Almost like they weren`t there.

Is it possible though that it disrupted the "Sea People" or other coastal Med societies and so opened the opportunity new comers to move from inland nareas into the coastal areas of the Eastern Med?

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Hi jar.Just out of interest are you talking in general terms or specifically about the theory that the Santorini eruption was the cause of the plagues and the parting of the Red Sea story?It's 'out of interest' because my knowledge is limited to one BBC programme from about three years ago plus what can be found with Google

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