Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
3 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,821 Year: 3,078/9,624 Month: 923/1,588 Week: 106/223 Day: 4/13 Hour: 0/2


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Exodus Part One: Hebrews/Israelites in Egypt
Nighttrain
Member (Idle past 3994 days)
Posts: 1512
From: brisbane,australia
Joined: 06-08-2004


Message 16 of 108 (210958)
05-24-2005 6:36 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Brian
05-24-2005 9:20 AM


Re: Exodus 12:37
Working backwards from Ex 32:29 'there fell of the people that day about three thousand men', might suggest a different interpretation of 'thousands' as 'families'.. Unless we are talking about three 'families' slain by the sons of Levi? Obviously, 2-3 million people plus livestock couldn`t survive on the water available in their travels, manna or no manna. In WW1, the British Army had to pipe water from the Sweetwater Canal to sustain 50,000 men at one of the most plentiful oases on the line of march into Palestine (From Suez to Aleppo-Keogh)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Brian, posted 05-24-2005 9:20 AM Brian has not replied

  
Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3048 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 17 of 108 (210959)
05-24-2005 6:36 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by CK
05-24-2005 6:08 PM


Re: Exodus 12:37
Let's be clear about this - you feel that 70 people became 4 million in the space of @ 400 years?
Is that basically your position or have I got an element of it wrong?
Where did the 4 million figure suddenly come from ?
I already agreed to "2-3 million".
The evidence of the Bible directly implies 70 persons multiplied into 600,000 men able for war. Add women and children - 2 to 3 million is quite reasonable.
RM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by CK, posted 05-24-2005 6:08 PM CK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by CK, posted 05-24-2005 6:59 PM Cold Foreign Object has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 18 of 108 (210961)
05-24-2005 6:53 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Cold Foreign Object
05-24-2005 6:32 PM


It seems that you have problems interpreting the evidence.
Firstly these "155 cities" are not limited to Egypt. ALL of the 19 identified are in Israel or Judah. Indeed it is likely that none of the cities are in Egypt proper and the list identifies cities external to Egypt but subject to the Pharoah. If that were not the case then we would expect major Egyptian cities - such as Thebes and Memphis - to be included and identified.
They include unimportant towns and small villages, so even if it did include places in Egypt they need not account for many people.
While only 19 were identified in 1937 this may not be the case today, moreover an inability to identify the site does not mean that it is unknown - only that it is not possible to link it with the name in the inscription.
So it seems that you don't have much of a point at all.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 05-24-2005 6:32 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 05-24-2005 8:31 PM PaulK has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 395 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 19 of 108 (210963)
05-24-2005 6:59 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Cold Foreign Object
05-24-2005 6:05 PM


Re: Exodus 12:37
Ray, that is one report but carries only anecdotal weight. We are looking for some evidence that might support such a claim. Do you have any?
In fact, do you have any evidence that there were any Isrealites in Egypt between 2000BCE and 1000BCE?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 05-24-2005 6:05 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 05-24-2005 8:17 PM jar has replied

  
CK
Member (Idle past 4128 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 20 of 108 (210964)
05-24-2005 6:59 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Cold Foreign Object
05-24-2005 6:36 PM


Opps! Typo
Apologies - the 4m figure was a typo.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 05-24-2005 6:36 PM Cold Foreign Object has not replied

  
Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3048 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 21 of 108 (210965)
05-24-2005 7:05 PM


Hydarnes, writes:
http://EvC Forum: Dating the Exodus -->EvC Forum: Dating the Exodus
"But a lack in archaeological evidence for an Israelite occupation during the 15th century does not automatically prove an absence of such. And it would do skeptics well to remember that the location in Egypt known as Tell el-Maskhouta (identified as the biblical succoth, and the stronghold from which Egypt would launch her campaigns into Palestine and Syria) has yielded no archaeological evidence whatsoever for signs of military buildings, barracks, forts or any other such structures during the 18th and 19th dynasties, notwithstanding the fact that Egyptian records testify to their existence."
From: Professor Cyrus Gordon, Field archaeologist in the Near East 1931-5 and conducted exploratory missions in the East Mediterranean.
Authority on Ugaritic Tablets; eight years engaged in deciphering the Minoan and Eteocretan inscriptions.
Author: "Ugaritic Literature" (1949), "Ugaritic Textbook" (1940, 1947,1955, 1965), "Adventures in the Nearest East" (1941, 1957), "Hammurapi's Code" (1957), "The Ancient Near East" (1953, 1958, 1965), "Evidence for the Minoan Language" (1965), "Ugarit and Minoan Crete" (1966)
And from: "Common Backround of Greek and Hebrew Civilizations" (1963, 1965)[Norton and Company; New York]:
"What emerges is noteworthy: the first high civilization of Europe was founded by Semites [Shemites] ejected from the Delta around 1800 BC; the Hebrew nation was a kindred group of Semites emanating from the same Delta"
"The people of Egypt have from time immemorial regarded their land as the gift of the Nile. Wherever the River's waters reach, the soil is fertile. Beyond, there is only desert.
The Land, almost sealed off from the rest of the world, is ideally suited for nurturing a distinctive civilisation. It is only at the north and south ends of the long, narrow country that Egypt is open to outside influences. The far south has always been open to Black Africa. The Delta (or Lower Egypt) has always been part of the Levant or East Mediterranean. Upper Egypt as the long area in between is called, has therefore been the most distinctive part of Egypt. It is the usual centre of nationalism, and because of its dry climate, where papyri and other organic material are well preserved, most of what we know archaeologically of ancient Egypt is from there. This has its unfortunate side, because it was precisely the Delta that had direct contact by land with Canaan, and by the sea with the Greeks, Phoenicians and other East Mediterranean peoples. The relative dearth of ancient remains in the Delta is in part responsible for the general underestimation of Egypt's role in the birth of Western Civilisation."
Ray Martinez: We also know the chronic flooding of the Nile wiped out archaeological remains, and of course the Bible specifies Israel dwelt in Goshen/Lower Egypt.
According to Biblical chronology the Exodus date is 1453 BC, plus at least 400 years in Egypt which pushes their presence back to c.1850 BC right in line with Gordon's "around 1800 BC" date.
Hydarnes is citing a Bimson quote which I have ONE use for:
Egyptian texts citing something archaeology has yet to find.
Is this thread assuming archaeology to be the standard by which truth is determined and measured by ?
Ray Martinez
This message has been edited by Ray Martinez, 05-24-2005 04:06 PM

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by jar, posted 05-24-2005 8:01 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 395 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 22 of 108 (210969)
05-24-2005 8:01 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Cold Foreign Object
05-24-2005 7:05 PM


Ray.
Is there something in that post that pertains to this thread or supports the assertion that there were Isrealites in Egypt during the period between 2000BCE and 1000BCE?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 05-24-2005 7:05 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 05-24-2005 8:11 PM jar has replied

  
Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3048 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 23 of 108 (210972)
05-24-2005 8:11 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by jar
05-24-2005 8:01 PM


Is there something in that post that pertains to this thread or supports the assertion that there were Isrealites in Egypt during the period between 2000BCE and 1000BCE?
You must of somehow missed it:
And from: Gordon, "Common Backround of Greek and Hebrew Civilizations" (1963, 1965)[Norton and Company; New York]:
"What emerges is noteworthy: the first high civilization of Europe was founded by Semites [Shemites] ejected from the Delta around 1800 BC; the Hebrew nation was a kindred group of Semites emanating from the same Delta"
Ray Martinez: According to Biblical chronology the Exodus date is 1453 BC, plus at least 400 years in Egypt which pushes their presence back to c.1850 BC right in line with Gordon's "around 1800 BC" date.
RM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by jar, posted 05-24-2005 8:01 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by jar, posted 05-24-2005 8:24 PM Cold Foreign Object has not replied

  
Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3048 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 24 of 108 (210974)
05-24-2005 8:17 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by jar
05-24-2005 6:59 PM


In fact, do you have any evidence that there were any Isrealites in Egypt between 2000BCE and 1000BCE?
Your question assumes the Bible is not evidence.
Literary is premium evidence, archaelogical is sub-premium, dependant upon the arbitrary and capricious kindness of time, environment, and weather.
What evidence do you have that supports your archaeology reports stating there is no evidence of Hebrews in Egypt ?
Ray Martinez

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by jar, posted 05-24-2005 6:59 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by jar, posted 05-24-2005 8:25 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied
 Message 36 by Nighttrain, posted 05-25-2005 3:38 AM Cold Foreign Object has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 395 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 25 of 108 (210977)
05-24-2005 8:24 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by Cold Foreign Object
05-24-2005 8:11 PM


"What emerges is noteworthy: the first high civilization of Europe was founded by Semites [Shemites] ejected from the Delta around 1800 BC; the Hebrew nation was a kindred group of Semites emanating from the same Delta"
Please point out what in the above quote shows there were Isrealites in Egypt between 2000BCE and 1000BCE?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 05-24-2005 8:11 PM Cold Foreign Object has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 395 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 26 of 108 (210978)
05-24-2005 8:25 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by Cold Foreign Object
05-24-2005 8:17 PM


The Bible cannot be evidence to support the Bible.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 05-24-2005 8:17 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 05-24-2005 9:06 PM jar has not replied

  
Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3048 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 27 of 108 (210979)
05-24-2005 8:31 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by PaulK
05-24-2005 6:53 PM


It seems that you have problems interpreting the evidence
Takes one to know one.
Could it be that you do not like the evidence ?
Firstly these "155 cities" are not limited to Egypt.
Who said they were ?
Please paste the post number and quote.
What relevance does Egypt have in this issue ?
ALL of the 19 identified are in Israel or Judah.
Thats what the evidence/quotes said.
What is your point ?
Indeed it is likely that none of the cities are in Egypt proper
Who claimed they were ?
And where ?
Please paste the post and quote or your input here is deliberate confusion.
and the list identifies cities external to Egypt but subject to the Pharoah
No shit !
At least you got something right.....whats your point ?
If that were not the case then we would expect major Egyptian cities - such as Thebes and Memphis - to be included and identified.
I have no idea what your point is or what you are talking about.
This comment is a non-sequitur and incoherent to anything posted or argued.
Please try again.
moreover an inability to identify the site does not mean that it is unknown - only that it is not possible to link it with the name in the inscription.
Agreed.
Then the same goes with the book of Exodus and the alleged inability to link what it says with physical data in Egypt.
Ray Martinez

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by PaulK, posted 05-24-2005 6:53 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by PaulK, posted 05-25-2005 2:47 AM Cold Foreign Object has not replied

  
Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3048 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 28 of 108 (210982)
05-24-2005 9:06 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by jar
05-24-2005 8:25 PM


The Bible cannot be evidence to support the Bible.
Opinion above silently recognizes that the Scriptural records are consistent.
Then by the same standard, what confirms archaeology reports stating there is no evidence of Hebrews in Egypt ?
I also noticed you completely ignored my logical observation that archaeology is dependant upon the arbitrary and capricious kindness of time, environment, and weather.
This is WHY literary is produced so facts of history are preserved and not subject to being lost due to the unpredictible conditions cited above.
Here is more evidence of Moses/Hebrews in Egypt:
Why does the Bible fail to mention the name of the Pharoah who presided over the Exodus and Plagues ?
Answer: The fact that the Torah does not name the Pharoah, is evidence of early Mosaic authorship. Official New Kingdom language never mentioned Pharoah by his name. Moses perpetrated the custom which explains why the Pharoah is not named.
The custom changed c.10th century when 1Kings names Shishak in accordance with Egyptian texts naming the Pharoah.
source: Archer, Survey of Old Testament Introduction, page 105,[1974?], Chicago, Moody Press.
RM
Edit:
Correction: changed the word "texts" to "language".
RM
This message has been edited by Ray Martinez, 05-24-2005 06:18 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by jar, posted 05-24-2005 8:25 PM jar has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by PaulK, posted 05-25-2005 2:51 AM Cold Foreign Object has replied

  
Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3048 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 29 of 108 (210983)
05-24-2005 9:14 PM


Question for Brian
What percentage of sites in Sinai and Lower Egypt have been properly excavated in relation to the total number of sites scholars know of ?
RM

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4960 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 30 of 108 (211027)
05-25-2005 2:32 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by PaulK
05-24-2005 1:02 PM


Re: Exodus 12:37
Well, to be fair all round, we have already had claims on other threads that there is evidence of Hebrews in Egypt.
Archaic guy says there are references to Hebrews in Egyptian documents and WT claims that there are Hebrew artifacts that havebeen found in Egypt. Any of these would be acceptable to me. There are other possible indications, but I'll let the pro crowd produce them.
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by PaulK, posted 05-24-2005 1:02 PM PaulK has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024