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Author Topic:   Pick and Choose Fundamentalism
Perdition
Member (Idle past 3238 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 316 of 384 (516116)
07-23-2009 12:47 PM
Reply to: Message 315 by Brian
07-23-2009 12:42 PM


Re: You have no choice
I think it must be a genuine repentance, this was one error that undermined Pascal's wager.
Yeah, but you tell that error to get in line! There are a lot of errors that are knocking on the Wager's door!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 315 by Brian, posted 07-23-2009 12:42 PM Brian has not replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 317 of 384 (516146)
07-23-2009 3:48 PM
Reply to: Message 309 by Theodoric
07-23-2009 9:07 AM


Re: Double standards?
Notice it says Hebrew slave, male at that. What about all the non hebrew, non male slaves? Even from just this slight reading you can see that they were treated differently.
Hebrews have always seen themselves as consecrated from the rest of society. Their book demands it, as they believe it to be a commandment from God.
Slavery was and is a brutal practice. It doesn't matter how you rationalize the bible, it promotes and supports a brutal practice.
I'm not defending the bible or going against the bible, but what Peg said, at least in this instance, is true. Not all slavery was as it was portrayed in Roots. A slave back then had a purpose and had the ability to survive. The most despised people of the day were neither slaves nor slavemasters. They were the people who couldn't find steady labor.
Of course this is not to disagree with you that there were not brutal moments of disgusting mistreatment, or that some people were not taken against their will. That did happen on occasion, but what you read about in the last days of slavery was usually nothing like it was thousands of years before this. It also varied considerably among different ethnic groups.
Maybe it would be ok for you and your family to agree to be enslaved. Even the new testament condones and promotes the master/slave relationship.
That's because you aren't aware of what slavery meant in those days or perhaps even how the slavetrade worked only a few hundred years ago. Most slaves were sold by their own people, because they were slaves back in their own country before they were slaves in another. That's how the slavetrade worked.

"Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call to her tribunal every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear." Thomas Jefferson

This message is a reply to:
 Message 309 by Theodoric, posted 07-23-2009 9:07 AM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 319 by Theodoric, posted 07-23-2009 5:01 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3292 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 318 of 384 (516154)
07-23-2009 4:54 PM
Reply to: Message 311 by Mothership
07-23-2009 9:34 AM


Re: Double standards?
Starflight writes:
Oh and another thing, Peg, you have to remember that many people became slaves because of Israelite conquests. So you are saying that they are better off being slaves of the Israelites than having their families intact? In other words you are saying that since god told the Israelites to kill all their men folk (including the little boys) that they should be grateful their new Israelite masters chose to spare their lives and give them a roof over their heads? I don't know about you, but if someone killed all my male relatives, I think I would rather die than to live with their killers, much less have sex with them.
Also in some passages it says that only the virgins should be spared, so in that case all the married women (young or old) would have been killed. And then there are passages about male infants being killed and of course certain instances when EVERYONE including the dogs and cats were annihilated. Nice going god! How is that being "merciful?"
It's part of the thank-god-for-dead-soldiers philosophy that's been going around.
Edited by Taz, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 311 by Mothership, posted 07-23-2009 9:34 AM Mothership has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 319 of 384 (516155)
07-23-2009 5:01 PM
Reply to: Message 317 by Hyroglyphx
07-23-2009 3:48 PM


Re: Double standards?
Hebrews have always seen themselves as consecrated from the rest of society.
How do you think the non hebrew, non maleslaves were treated? I doubt they were able to leave after 6 years.
The most despised people of the day were neither slaves nor slavemasters. They were the people who couldn't find steady labor.
Evidence please. Please show me some historical documentation that says slaves were not poorly thought of? Across the years slaves have been denigrated. One of the ways slavery works in a society is that it gives the lowest of the low a class of people to look down upon. As for your comment about "people that couldn't find steady labor". These people were the norm not the exception in many societies. Laborers were the back bone of most earlier societies. They worked when there was work and starved when there wasn't. You seem to have a very elitist view of history.
but what you read about in the last days of slavery was usually nothing like it was thousands of years before this.
Again some evidence to back up this statement.
I guess I didn't realize young girls liked beig sold into slavery to be raped. The term "to them for their wives" is a euphemism for rape.
That's because you aren't aware of what slavery meant in those days or perhaps even how the slavetrade worked only a few hundred years ago.
Oh really? How do you know what I know and don't know. Please do not accuse me of being unaware if you have no historical evidence to back your claim. In all my years of reading and studying, the only sources I have come across extolling the virtues of slavery have been written by the slave owners. Oh and the bible. I don't think either is particularly objective.
Most slaves were sold by their own people,
Wrong. Most slaves historical have come from conquest. In Africa the Arabs were the prime drivers of the slave trade. They continued this up until the last century. You may have noticed that you don't see many people that are descendants of slaves that are Arabic. Did people at times sell their own people into slavery? Yes assuredly so. But to make the above comment is ridiculous. You really should be careful with using absolutes like "most".
because they were slaves back in their own country before they were slaves in another.
I would really like to know your source for this tidbit.
Have you read anything on the slave trade? Have you ever read any ancient history? any history at all?
Slavery is, was and always has been a brutal practice. It is especially brutal for the women and children that were enslaved. Women AND children were raped and molested with no recourse. Slavery was used to provide labor for the most horrendous of jobs. The jobs free people did not want to do. Yes you can find stories about slaves that got wealthy or were well treated by their masters or even found their way out. These are by far the exception. Most slaves worked and died a brutal life and death.
If you want to provide some source that disputes this by all means I am willing to look at it. I suggest you do some studying on the topic.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 317 by Hyroglyphx, posted 07-23-2009 3:48 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4930 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 320 of 384 (516199)
07-24-2009 3:04 AM
Reply to: Message 309 by Theodoric
07-23-2009 9:07 AM


Re: Double standards?
theordoric writes:
By the way do you know anything about slavery in the Roman times? It was not pleasant
im sure it wasnt
but we aren't talking about roman slaves

This message is a reply to:
 Message 309 by Theodoric, posted 07-23-2009 9:07 AM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 322 by Theodoric, posted 07-24-2009 4:23 AM Peg has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4930 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 321 of 384 (516202)
07-24-2009 3:31 AM
Reply to: Message 310 by Mothership
07-23-2009 9:22 AM


Re: Double standards?
Mothership writes:
Peg if God is the same "yesterday, today and tomorrow," according to the bible then why does he sanction unfair practices at one point in time and condemn them in another.
Let me just ask you this. Would it be OK to sell daughters off for marriage to anyone here in America for money or any other reasons?
If God allowed it in ancient times then why isn't it OK now?
im glad you bought this up because i think whats missing in this discussion is exactly how God would choose to have us live and be governed.
Mankind is the originator of slavery, not God. God does not control our decisions, our governments, our rulers and he doesnt decide how our societies function. We do. We have done so since A&E chose independence. From the beginning of mankinds inception we've been governing ourselves, inventing out own cultural norms and promoting our own ideas.
When God chose to lead the Isrealites, they already had an established culture with its norms and practices. He gave them his laws, but he was working with a nation of people who already had their own ways of doing things. Before the mosaic law, marriages were being arranged by the parents and that was acceptable normal cutlrue. God did not take away the Isrealites culture unless it directly violated his standards. Slavery was an established societal norm that was beneficial to both slaves and owners. To slaves it provided a means of sustenance and to owners it provided a means of labor.
Now God could have done away with it, but would the people have accepted that?? perhaps not. So rather then completely abolish all that they knew as normal and acceptable, he placed regulations on the things that could easily be abused so that there would at least be some form of stability to the practice.
Mothership writes:
You are saying that god is accomodating certain customs. If god is sovereign like the bible claims, then why does he have to "kotow" down before social customs whether in ancient or modern times?
The fact is that we have been independent of God since A&E left the garden of eden. This independence means that we have been governing ourselves and God has allowed this becuase his sovereignty is at stake. The challenge that was raised in the garden of Eden is weather or not mankind is better off on their own. God is allowing time for mankind to rule independently to establish who's rulership is best.
When the matter is finalised, then God will establish his own rulership on the earth thru Jesus Christ and the Kingdom.
Mothership writes:
Again, I ask you does god REALLY accomodate humans? If so, why? If he can give them the ten commandments, why couldn't he have made an eleventh--"Thou shalt not have slaves."
have a look at Jesus reply to the pharasees question about divorce. : Mt 19:3-6 "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife on every sort of ground?" Christ showed that God purposed for man to leave his father and his mother and stick to his wife, the two becoming one flesh. Then Jesus said "what God has yoked together let no man put apart."
Then they asked: "Why, then, did Moses prescribe giving a certificate of dismissal and divorcing her?" and he said in verse 7-8: "Moses, out of regard for your hardheartedness, made the concession to you of divorcing your wives, but such has not been the case from the beginning."
So God has been 'accomodating' humans. As you can see from Jesus words, Gods standard was that no divorce should take place, however he allowed divorce due to the 'hard heartedness' of the people.
We are imperfect and God sees that and accommodates it. He does not require perfection, only repentance.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 310 by Mothership, posted 07-23-2009 9:22 AM Mothership has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 323 by Brian, posted 07-24-2009 5:03 AM Peg has replied
 Message 332 by Mothership, posted 07-24-2009 10:28 AM Peg has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 322 of 384 (516206)
07-24-2009 4:23 AM
Reply to: Message 320 by Peg
07-24-2009 3:04 AM


Re: Double standards?
but we aren't talking about roman slaves
No we aren't. We are talking about a time that was earlier and even more brutal.
Do you know any history at all? other than the pseudo history of the bible?
Life for most people was tough and brutal, the life of a slave was even worse.
If slavery was so damn wonderful, why did the Israelites flee Egypt?
If you have any historical evidence at all, showing that there was some sort of benevolent slavery, please present it. BUt I am sure all you have for evidence is your bible.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 320 by Peg, posted 07-24-2009 3:04 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 324 by Peg, posted 07-24-2009 6:15 AM Theodoric has replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4960 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 323 of 384 (516209)
07-24-2009 5:03 AM
Reply to: Message 321 by Peg
07-24-2009 3:31 AM


Re: Double standards?
The fact is that we have been independent of God since A&E left the garden of eden. This independence means that we have been governing ourselves and God has allowed this becuase his sovereignty is at stake.
Okay, so mankind made its decision, why doesn't God just f*ck off and leave us alone then?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 321 by Peg, posted 07-24-2009 3:31 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 325 by Peg, posted 07-24-2009 6:23 AM Brian has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4930 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 324 of 384 (516213)
07-24-2009 6:15 AM
Reply to: Message 322 by Theodoric
07-24-2009 4:23 AM


Re: Double standards?
Theordoric writes:
Life for most people was tough and brutal, the life of a slave was even worse.
If slavery was so damn wonderful, why did the Israelites flee Egypt?
they didnt flee
they got a little help.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 322 by Theodoric, posted 07-24-2009 4:23 AM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 326 by Brian, posted 07-24-2009 6:25 AM Peg has not replied
 Message 327 by Theodoric, posted 07-24-2009 6:35 AM Peg has not replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4930 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 325 of 384 (516214)
07-24-2009 6:23 AM
Reply to: Message 323 by Brian
07-24-2009 5:03 AM


Re: Double standards?
Brian writes:
Okay, so mankind made its decision, why doesn't God just f*ck off and leave us alone then?
because whether we like it or not, this is still his world, the people in it are still his creation and some of them WANT his rulership
his purpose for us hasnt changed, he still wants a garden of eden and the human family to live in perfect peace and harmony under the right conditions.
His purpose to bring this all about has been in progress for almost 7,000 years and its still in progress...he promised a messiah, he chose a nation to live under his laws so we knew what his standards were, the messiah came and opened the way for all nations to come to know him, thru christianity he has been gathering people to live by his rulership under the banner of his kingdom and soon that kingdom will take action against its enemies.
so God has never abandoned mankind even though we've abandoned him. He's been slowly working to bring us back into his fold and soon the realisation of his kingdom will be seen by all.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 323 by Brian, posted 07-24-2009 5:03 AM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 328 by Brian, posted 07-24-2009 6:48 AM Peg has replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4960 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 326 of 384 (516215)
07-24-2009 6:25 AM
Reply to: Message 324 by Peg
07-24-2009 6:15 AM


Re: Double standards?
they didnt flee
According to the Bible they did.
Unless your cult's ()Bible is different from everyone elses?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 324 by Peg, posted 07-24-2009 6:15 AM Peg has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 329 by ICANT, posted 07-24-2009 7:00 AM Brian has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 327 of 384 (516217)
07-24-2009 6:35 AM
Reply to: Message 324 by Peg
07-24-2009 6:15 AM


Re: Double standards?
they didnt flee
OK. I really need to read your explanation and rationalization for this one.
Running form Pharaoh's men would be called active fleeing.
Edited by Theodoric, : No reason given.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 324 by Peg, posted 07-24-2009 6:15 AM Peg has not replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4960 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 328 of 384 (516220)
07-24-2009 6:48 AM
Reply to: Message 325 by Peg
07-24-2009 6:23 AM


Never going to happen
because whether we like it or not, this is still his world, the people in it are still his creation and some of them WANT his rulership
But if God has not repented we would not know anything about Him, so you couldn’t WANT His rulership because you would not know about it.
his purpose for us hasnt changed, he still wants a garden of eden and the human family to live in perfect peace and harmony under the right conditions.
Well since it was God that messed up the near perfection of the Garden, don’t you think He would have been better keeping Himself to Himself?
His purpose to bring this all about has been in progress for almost 7,000 years and its still in progress...he promised a messiah, he chose a nation to live under his laws so we knew what his standards were, the messiah came and opened the way for all nations to come to know him, thru christianity he has been gathering people to live by his rulership under the banner of his kingdom and soon that kingdom will take action against its enemies.
Christians have been saying for nearly 2000 years that the Kingdom will come soon, it isn't going to happen.
It really is a very silly faith Peg, it makes no sense at all. Logically speaking it is so full of holes that mankind should have catalogued Christianity alongside all the other myths, it eally is that bad.
Look at what it says.
6000 or so years ago God created the universe, He placed naive humans in a near perfect garden and told them to obey Him or else something bad would happen. Now these humans had no idea what ‘bad’ meant, so they went ahead and did the one thing they weren’t to do. That one thing was to eat a fruit that imparrted knowledge to the person that ate it, and only AFTER they ate it did they know what ‘bad’ meant. Already we have ludicrous claims and we haven’t really got into christian thought.
For a start, we have a God who knows that His creation will fail the test, he has set up the scenario Himself, He placed the ‘loaded gun’ right next to them. He told them that to disobey was bad and they had no idea what ‘bad’ meant. Then what did He do? The very first time His chidlren disobeyed Him (completely innocently of course), He takes a big huff and kicks them out of the Garden. When we consider what the parents of drug addicts do for their addicted children we can see how evil God is already.
Then what do we get?
God makes such a poor job of creating humans that He wipes almost all of them out and starts again! What a failure He is.
Then when He realises that He has been a moron he comes up with a plan, which is even more moronic.
God says I know what I will do, I will send myself to Earth and the humans will have to sacrifice me to me to make things okay with me and them again! How can any sane person take this seriously, it isn’t even remotely believable, it is riddled with logical errors.
You know it gets even more ridiculous when we look at the apparent incarnation of God. His followers have to tell so many lies for Him, they rip prophecies out of context, their lies even negate Jesus bloodline and still Christians ignore the biblical evidence. Jesus Himself told so many lies that if He did exist He had to be either insane or a compulsive liar. Jesus freed israel that much that they were even more persecuted than ever before, an utter failure as a messiah.
so God has never abandoned mankind even though we've abandoned him.
We haven’t abandoned Him, there are Christians in probably every country in the world.
He's been slowly working to bring us back into his fold
That doesn’t resemble reality though Peg where the number of Christians has been dropping rapidly. Unless, of course, Allah is the true God since Muslims now outnumber Christians.
and soon the realisation of his kingdom will be seen by all.
Yes, the world has been hearing this for 2000 years, and in another 2000 years there will still be morons waiting for it to happen. That’s if the religious freaks haven’t wiped us all out before then.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 325 by Peg, posted 07-24-2009 6:23 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 330 by Peg, posted 07-24-2009 8:18 AM Brian has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 329 of 384 (516224)
07-24-2009 7:00 AM
Reply to: Message 326 by Brian
07-24-2009 6:25 AM


Re: Double standards?
Hi Brian,
Brian writes:
they didnt flee
According to the Bible they did.
Unless your cult's ()Bible is different from everyone elses?
My cult's Bible says:
12:30 And Pharaoh rose up in the night, he, and all his servants, and all the Egyptians; and there was a great cry in Egypt; for there was not a house where there was not one dead.
12:31 And he called for Moses and Aaron by night, and said, Rise up, and get you forth from among my people, both ye and the children of Israel; and go, serve the LORD, as ye have said.
12:32 Also take your flocks and your herds, as ye have said, and be gone; and bless me also.
12:33 And the Egyptians were urgent upon the people, that they might send them out of the land in haste; for they said, We be all dead men.
12:34 And the people took their dough before it was leavened, their kneadingtroughs being bound up in their clothes upon their shoulders.
12:35 And the children of Israel did according to the word of Moses; and they borrowed of the Egyptians jewels of silver, and jewels of gold, and raiment:
12:36 And the LORD gave the people favor in the sight of the Egyptians, so that they lent unto them such things as they required. And they spoiled the Egyptians.
Seems like they got run out of Egypt according to this account.
Bod Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 326 by Brian, posted 07-24-2009 6:25 AM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 331 by Brian, posted 07-24-2009 10:14 AM ICANT has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4930 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 330 of 384 (516234)
07-24-2009 8:18 AM
Reply to: Message 328 by Brian
07-24-2009 6:48 AM


Re: Never going to happen
Brian writes:
Christians have been saying for nearly 2000 years that the Kingdom will come soon, it isn't going to happen.
thats not what the record of events shows...
Moses wrote about the promise to send a messiah and 2,000 years later the messiah appeared...so why shouldnt the rest of the promise happen?
Brian writes:
6000 or so years ago God created the universe,
no it doesnt say that. It says that 6000 years ago God created mankind. The earth was an existing creation in the universe.
The bible gives us the history of 'mankind' not the 'universe'
Brian writes:
For a start, we have a God who knows that His creation will fail the test, he has set up the scenario Himself, He placed the ‘loaded gun’ right next to them.
No, he didnt know they would fail. He allowed them free will and encouraged them to do the opposite of what they chose.
Brian writes:
God says I know what I will do, I will send myself to Earth and the humans will have to sacrifice me to me to make things okay with me and them again! How can any sane person take this seriously, it isn’t even remotely believable, it is riddled with logical errors.
well i agree with you on that one. But the illogical errors are a result of mans doctrines. God never said he'd 'send himself' he did say he would send his 'son'
that son was Jesus christ who also claimed to be the 'Son of God'
and his diciples also called him the 'Son of God'
Brian writes:
Jesus freed israel that much that they were even more persecuted than ever before, an utter failure as a messiah.
You dont think that has anything to do with the fact that they rejected the messiah thus causing God to reject them? Anyway, if he wasnt the messiah, then he bares not responsibility for their plight.
Brian writes:
We haven’t abandoned Him, there are Christians in probably every country in the world.
thats right, because he has been collecting them together as a group who worship him out of love and who obey his principles because they have the word of God written on their hearts.
Brian writes:
That doesn’t resemble reality though Peg where the number of Christians has been dropping rapidly. Unless, of course, Allah is the true God since Muslims now outnumber Christians.
Its not about numbers. There is not going to be a mass conversion to Christianity. But there will be a great number of christians who Jesus will judge as worthy, and a great number of christians who will not have his approval.
Brian writes:
Yes, the world has been hearing this for 2000 years, and in another 2000 years there will still be morons waiting for it to happen. That’s if the religious freaks haven’t wiped us all out before then.
2,000 years is a very short period of time to God. 1,ooo years to us is like 1 day to him. Actually, the bible says we are still in Gods 7th day of rest. When the 8th day begins, then all will be revealed.
Edited by Peg, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 328 by Brian, posted 07-24-2009 6:48 AM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 333 by Brian, posted 07-24-2009 10:47 AM Peg has not replied

  
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