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Author Topic:   The Book of Revelation, Hallucination, and Heresy
Yaro
Member (Idle past 6496 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 31 of 57 (125186)
07-16-2004 11:07 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by Nasa
07-16-2004 10:05 PM


dude.
Whats with the quotes? Dont you have any of your own arguments?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Nasa, posted 07-16-2004 10:05 PM Nasa has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by Nasa, posted 07-16-2004 11:21 PM Yaro has replied

  
Nasa
Inactive Member


Message 32 of 57 (125193)
07-16-2004 11:21 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by Yaro
07-16-2004 11:07 PM


Im not a dude. The quotes are great, far better and carrying far greater weight than what I could produce.
Dont you like the quotes by C.S Lewis?
This message has been edited by Nasa, 07-16-2004 10:21 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Yaro, posted 07-16-2004 11:07 PM Yaro has replied

Replies to this message:
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Yaro
Member (Idle past 6496 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 33 of 57 (125200)
07-16-2004 11:35 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by Nasa
07-16-2004 11:21 PM


quotes are a great way of saying things, if YOU have something to say
Basically, so what, they are a bunch of quotes, but less you give us your opinion to put them into context they are meaningless. Furthermore, those you are quoting should be people who know a little something about what they are talking about.
Last time I checked Freddy Mercury was a rock star, not a Bible historian

This message is a reply to:
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sidelined
Member (Idle past 5908 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 34 of 57 (125207)
07-17-2004 12:32 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by Nasa
07-16-2004 10:05 PM


Nasa
,..... " If you can not believe the writings of Moses, then how can you believe me". Johns gospel.
My guess is if Moses is wrong then John is informing us that he is also likely wrong.
No one can know but by faith or by the experience of the Lords Holy spirit, -if any, if not all the books of the bible are true or false.
If you have faith you preclude questioning of the Bible and are therefore closed minded and fearful.
A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic - on a level with the man who says he is a poached egg - or else he would be the devil of hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the son of God; or else a madman or something worse.... but let us not come up with any patronising nonsense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to.
C. S. Lewis.
What if C.S.Lewis is simply wrong and Jesus{if he indeed existed} was just a man how would that make a phrase from him such as Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself not be a great moral teaching? He would not be a lunatic or a devil of hell, but rather, now listen closely child, he would be simply like we are ,human..
So I would choose not the black and white world of a dull man like C.S.Lewis but a colorful and robust life where a great human teacher is a force ti be reckoned with.
Bernard Ramm, a professor of theology in the USA said this about the words and teachings of Jesus:
They are read more, quoted more, loved more, believed more, and translated more because they are the greatest words ever spoken....Their greatness lies in the pure lucid spirituality in dealing clearly, definitively, and authoritatively with the greatest problems that throb in the human breast....No other man's words have the appeal of Jesus' words because no other man can answer these fundamental human questions as Jesus answered them. They are the kind of words and kind of answers we would expect God to give.
Imagine that,a theologian defending that which He spent his life on.
Is there found here some means by which we can judge for ourselves that they are indeed read more quoted more,loved more,Etc..or is it simply the opinion of one man who has cause to bolster his belief since to do otherwise is to begin the undermining of that faith to which he stubborly clings? What fundamentals were answered? I really would like to see something on that.
Many of the Laws in the west were originally based on the teachings of Jesus. We are making progress in virtually every field of science and technology. We travel faster and know more, and yet in 2,000 years no one has improved on the moral teaching of Jesus Chirst. Could that teaching really have come from a con man or a mad man?
Nicky Gumbel, Theology and Writer Oxford.
Please show us which Laws were adopted in the west.Eye for an eye? Stoning to death of disobedient children? Pleasee clarify would you?Show us the present law and the biblical equivalent.
[The] Church.....beginning from a handful of uneducated fishermen and tax gatherers, swept across the whole known world in the next three hundred years. It is a perfectly amazing story of peaceful revolution that has no parallel in the history of the world. It came about because Christians were able to say to inquirers: "Jesus did not only die for you. He is alive! You can meet him and discover for yourself the reality we are talking about!" They did, and joined the church and the church, born from that Easter, gave spread everywhere.
Michael Green, Writer.
And Michael Green backs up this fantasy with what evidence other than this statement?
Now there was about this time, Jesus a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man, for he was a doer of wonderful works - a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews, and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Chirst; and when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at first did not forsake him, for he appeared to them alive again the third day, as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him; and the tribe of Christians so named after him, are not extinct at this day.
Josephus, Historian. AD 37.
Interesting how the date given beside Josephus Historian is AD 37 implying that he wrote about an event that was in recent memory of his time when in fact A.D. 37 was Josephus' year of birth.This man wrote an account long after the events of Jesus' life and death and likely drew on accounts by Christian believers at that time.
Is not the nature of Christ, in the words of the New testament, enough to pierce to the soul anyone with a soul to be piered?....he still looms over the world, his message still clear, his pity still infinite, his consolation still effective, his words still full of glory, wisdom and love.
Bernard Levin. Columnist
His message is only carried on by living people much in the same way it is claimed that JFK ,Bruce Lee, Elvis and a host of others are still alive. That is not a great mystery that people would cling to comforting illusions.
In many of the popular music trends of the past twenty years or so there is a cry concerning a: Loss of direction, lost hope, no faith, a wanting to live for ever, a bitterness to an unseen lie, a hate in being alone, to have satisfaction, a constant craving, a sin, of help, of a sound of silence, a feeling of falling, a feeling of fear, a wanting to go home, a need of peace and an unseen enemy. The chorus from a famous song sums it up. " Constant craving has always been." Can you sing what you dont believe? Can you write what you are not feeling at the time, when under no pressure to do otherwise? No matter, because the most amazing thing is Jesus has delt with and has answers for all of these cries!
Nathan Price.
You must listen to depressing music man. I even take in some country and hell even they are not that morose. I believe you have some serious issues with your mortality.Being human involves all the pleasant and all the hard to deal with issues and some of us do not need to be comforted and tie ourselves to illusions of mortality.I find life great even though I am starting that slow descent into back problems and deteriorating neck veterbrae and,no doubt, that slow...relentless...nagging...*** Dang I forgot where I was going with that.
Imagine there's no Heaven. It's easy if you try.
No hell below us.Above us only sky.
I think I am clear enough as to what I think of this drivel.
This message has been edited by sidelined, 07-17-2004 07:45 AM
This message has been edited by sidelined, 07-17-2004 07:47 AM

This message is a reply to:
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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 35 of 57 (125218)
07-17-2004 1:33 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by pink sasquatch
07-07-2004 1:47 AM


Over the years I've heard rumors that John of Patmos wrote the Book of Revelation while in a hallucination induced by the fungus ergot.
1. Rev 1:10 says John was "in the Spirit on the Lord's day." He was inspired by the Holy Spirit. One of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is the gift of prophecy and John had this gift in a big way, seeing numerous visions and revelations while on the Isle of Patmos.
2. The Bible begins with Genesis and the creation of the world and it's heavens and the things in it. It ends with the end of the world and the creation of a new heaven and earth. The book of Revelation begins with the seven churches which are a metaphoric prophecy of the age from Penticost until the end of the church age and the resurrection. I believe the woman of Thyatira could be analogous to the harlot, Mystery Babylon of Rev 17,18.
3. After the seven churches comes the opening of the sealed book with the 1st six seals a preview of the end times. The seventh seal opens the seven trumpets which go to the resurrection and catching up into heaven of the church/Christian believers at the seventh and last trumpet. The 7th trumpet also ushers in the time of the cup of God's wrath upon earth filled and the seven bowls of his wrath are poured out upon earth with bigtime global warming, lots of bad stuff and culminating at the seventh bowl with a worldwide shaking/earthquake and Armageddon leaving relatively few inhabitants left upon earth. It is at this time the Jesus returns to earth with his followers and sets up an earthly kingdom in Jerusalem, becoming literally king of the Jews as was stated on his cross and ruling the whole planet from Mt Zion/temple mount in Jerusalem.
Uriah Smith a Seventh Day Adventist from way back is not a reliable source of understanding Revelation, imo. Seventh Day Adventism has improved over the last few decades, becoming more evangelical, but they still have some problems with the prophecies according to Revelation, Daniel and some other prophets.
While looking around for any historical support for this claim, I tripped across a website that claims that Revelation is heresy.....
The prophesies of a numberless monetary system, a speaking image which people view in relation to worship, the ability to view things worldwide from one point on earth, the ability to destroy a city in an hour by fire, global warming, wild weather phenomena, a 200 million army emerging from the east, Israel becoming a nation with focus on Jerusalem, severe persecution of Christians, the ability to preach the gospel to all nations via a messenger flying/orbiting in heaven, emergence of increased grass, brush and forest fires, the emergence of one world government, etc, all of which are being fulfilled show the book to be reliable, imo.
This message has been edited by buzsaw, 07-17-2004 12:34 AM

The immeasurable present is forever consuming the eternal future and extending the infinite past. buz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by pink sasquatch, posted 07-07-2004 1:47 AM pink sasquatch has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by arachnophilia, posted 07-17-2004 4:17 AM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 37 by pink sasquatch, posted 07-18-2004 4:05 AM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 38 by pink sasquatch, posted 07-18-2004 4:08 AM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 50 by Aurelie, posted 08-15-2004 3:42 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1343 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 36 of 57 (125232)
07-17-2004 4:17 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by Buzsaw
07-17-2004 1:33 AM


1. Rev 1:10 says John was "in the Spirit on the Lord's day." He was inspired by the Holy Spirit. One of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is the gift of prophecy and John had this gift in a big way, seeing numerous visions and revelations while on the Isle of Patmos.
well, then, in the name of jesus christ our lord, i say you're wrong.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by PecosGeorge, posted 07-22-2004 11:29 PM arachnophilia has replied

  
pink sasquatch
Member (Idle past 6022 days)
Posts: 1567
Joined: 06-10-2004


Message 37 of 57 (125400)
07-18-2004 4:05 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by Buzsaw
07-17-2004 1:33 AM


Buzsaw, thanks for your comments.
Rev 1:10 says John was "in the Spirit on the Lord's day." He was inspired by the Holy Spirit.
Okay, but John wrote Revelation.
If John was hallucinating that he was "in the Spirit", that is what we would expect to see written in Revelation.
It is the mode of authorship that is being questioned - you can't cite the authored work as proof of legitimacy. It's like proving someone's not a liar by reading a note they wrote saying, "I'm not a liar."

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Replies to this message:
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pink sasquatch
Member (Idle past 6022 days)
Posts: 1567
Joined: 06-10-2004


Message 38 of 57 (125401)
07-18-2004 4:08 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by Buzsaw
07-17-2004 1:33 AM


Buzsaw, you made comments that parts of Revelation are metaphor, and parts are literal. How do we know which is which?
Also, do you believe the rest of the Bible should be taken literally? I'm asking because I've realized that many believe in a literal reading of the Bible until they get to Revelation, and then terms like "code" and "symbolism" and "metaphor" start getting used.
My thought is that the rest of the Bible is historical, and so can be taken as literal on faith. However, Revelation deals with the (near) future, and so if (possible) apocalyptic events occur and are not witnessed as literally described in the Bible, doubt will be cast on the entire Bible. Or more likely, it allows the opportunity to see the prophesies fulfilled or capable of being fulfilled in the world around us, even though that requires using metaphor and symbolism.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Buzsaw, posted 07-17-2004 1:33 AM Buzsaw has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 39 of 57 (125469)
07-18-2004 2:28 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by pink sasquatch
07-18-2004 4:05 AM


It isn't the Walrus
Brad is John.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Nighttrain
Member (Idle past 3993 days)
Posts: 1512
From: brisbane,australia
Joined: 06-08-2004


Message 40 of 57 (126777)
07-22-2004 8:59 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by Nasa
07-16-2004 10:05 PM


[There are many fears that plague the human soul: Kenophobia, fear of empty rooms. Limnophobia, fear of lakes. Microphobia, fear of germs. Ochlophobia, fear of crowds. Paralipophobia, fear of neglect of duty. Tachophobia, fear of speed. Zelophobia, fear of jealousy. Triskaidekapobia fear of thirteen. Chionophobia, fear of snow, and many, many more. These fears are very real to the people that have them. Yet there is a writen word that says not one of us has to have any fear but in God. The word of God, in just one account of many,........ ]
Is there Biblophobia---the fear that the Bible could be wrong? If not wrong,then which version is right? Can you prove it? Which of the Hexapla versions of the OT are right? Should we follow the Septuagint or the Masoretic version? How about the different OT shown in the Qumran Scrolls? Do we go with the Catholic Bible, the KJV or Westcott/Hort Revision? The Byzantine Texts or the Western? Good News for Modern Man, or the JW`s home brew? Don`t tell me there is ONLY one Bible without proving it.

This message is a reply to:
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Nighttrain
Member (Idle past 3993 days)
Posts: 1512
From: brisbane,australia
Joined: 06-08-2004


Message 41 of 57 (126778)
07-22-2004 9:01 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by jar
07-18-2004 2:28 PM


Re: It isn't the Walrus
A little harsh,Jar. We love our Brad.:-)

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PecosGeorge
Member (Idle past 6872 days)
Posts: 863
From: Texas
Joined: 04-09-2004


Message 42 of 57 (126807)
07-22-2004 11:29 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by arachnophilia
07-17-2004 4:17 AM


no he ain't

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by arachnophilia, posted 07-17-2004 4:17 AM arachnophilia has replied

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 Message 43 by arachnophilia, posted 07-23-2004 2:22 AM PecosGeorge has replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1343 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 43 of 57 (126861)
07-23-2004 2:22 AM
Reply to: Message 42 by PecosGeorge
07-22-2004 11:29 PM


no he ain't
he ain't wrong? well, in the name of our lord jesus christ, who inspired me to write this very sentance, i say you're wrong too.
either you admit that saying you're inspired by god isn't valid proof of authenticity, or that if it is, you're still wrong anyways. anyone can write things in the name of jesus. anyone can say they're inspired.
so what?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by PecosGeorge, posted 07-22-2004 11:29 PM PecosGeorge has replied

Replies to this message:
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PecosGeorge
Member (Idle past 6872 days)
Posts: 863
From: Texas
Joined: 04-09-2004


Message 44 of 57 (126937)
07-23-2004 9:32 AM
Reply to: Message 43 by arachnophilia
07-23-2004 2:22 AM


you tell me

"Let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit!"
2 Cor. 7:1

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by arachnophilia, posted 07-23-2004 2:22 AM arachnophilia has replied

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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1343 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 45 of 57 (127236)
07-24-2004 2:02 AM
Reply to: Message 44 by PecosGeorge
07-23-2004 9:32 AM


i did. i told you that he was wrong, and proved it logically.
This message has been edited by Arachnophilia, 07-24-2004 01:03 AM

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