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Author Topic:   The Book of Revelation, Hallucination, and Heresy
PecosGeorge
Member (Idle past 6873 days)
Posts: 863
From: Texas
Joined: 04-09-2004


Message 16 of 57 (122987)
07-08-2004 12:15 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by pink sasquatch
07-07-2004 7:51 PM


I can help
you a little bit here, but without intensive research on your part, I doubt you will understand.
A sect and its proselytes (children) are meant. The woman being the apostate church. The church in Revelation is referred to as a woman. Her children are those who copy her in apostasy. This is part of the messages to the seven churches.
And this is where I need to let it go. I cannot help you. If you are a believer, than study to show yourself approved. If you are not, no amount of effort on my part will help you see this.

"In that day I will also make a covenant for them with the beasts of the field, the birds of the sky and the creeping things of the ground. And I will abolish the bow, the sword and war from the land, and will make them lie down in safety. I will betroth you to Me forever; yes, I will betroth you to Me in righteousness and in justice, in lovingkindness and in compassion, and I will betroth you to Me in faithfulness. Then you will know the LORD."
-the prophet Hosea (8th century B.C.) in Hosea 2:18-20

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by pink sasquatch, posted 07-07-2004 7:51 PM pink sasquatch has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by Nighttrain, posted 07-15-2004 6:12 AM PecosGeorge has replied
 Message 20 by sidelined, posted 07-15-2004 10:53 PM PecosGeorge has replied
 Message 23 by pink sasquatch, posted 07-16-2004 1:07 AM PecosGeorge has replied

  
Nighttrain
Member (Idle past 3994 days)
Posts: 1512
From: brisbane,australia
Joined: 06-08-2004


Message 17 of 57 (124670)
07-15-2004 6:12 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by PecosGeorge
07-08-2004 12:15 PM


Re: I can help
This mumbo-jumbo about codes and secret revelations has been used for millenia to prop up splinter groups. 'I,and only I, can determine what is written here.' Trouble is when it comes to the crunch, parousia, prophecies, personal interpretations, all have a nasty habit of falling down.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by PecosGeorge, posted 07-08-2004 12:15 PM PecosGeorge has replied

Replies to this message:
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PecosGeorge
Member (Idle past 6873 days)
Posts: 863
From: Texas
Joined: 04-09-2004


Message 18 of 57 (124681)
07-15-2004 8:48 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by Nighttrain
07-15-2004 6:12 AM


Re: I can help
OK

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1.61803
Member (Idle past 1504 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 19 of 57 (124713)
07-15-2004 1:22 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by PecosGeorge
07-07-2004 5:55 PM


Re: Code
The book almost did not make the Cannon because of it's controversy. Also I heard that the 666 reference was used to name Nero. The Book of Revelations was written just after the Romans had annihilated the Jewish temples hence its apocalyptic theme. Some theologians also believe it was also written to bring the splintered faction of judaism known as christians back into the fold and futher provide a rift between othodoxed jews and christians. But all of this is moot because no one will ever know.

"One is punished most for ones virtues" Fredrick Neitzche

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by PecosGeorge, posted 07-07-2004 5:55 PM PecosGeorge has replied

Replies to this message:
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sidelined
Member (Idle past 5908 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 20 of 57 (124851)
07-15-2004 10:53 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by PecosGeorge
07-08-2004 12:15 PM


Re: I can help
PecosGeorge
And this is where I need to let it go. I cannot help you. If you are a believer, than study to show yourself approved. If you are not, no amount of effort on my part will help you see this.
What an inept means of getting your point across. So your what you are really saying is that if you believe then you need make no effort.{duh!} and if we do not first believe then you are not obligated to back up your position because your arguements are too weak to actually stand up to critical analysis of it.
Why bother to post?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by PecosGeorge, posted 07-08-2004 12:15 PM PecosGeorge has replied

Replies to this message:
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PecosGeorge
Member (Idle past 6873 days)
Posts: 863
From: Texas
Joined: 04-09-2004


Message 21 of 57 (124860)
07-15-2004 11:20 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by 1.61803
07-15-2004 1:22 PM


Why bother
to call it the revelation of Jesus Christ as told to the apostle John on the island of Patmos? Because Christ wanted to reveal something, and something important? The anti-Christ for one, who would have surely destroyed these words had he known the interpretation of them. But time needed to pass before the key could be found, decoded, and applied. The Roman empire yet existed (link to Daniel). The two books are closely intertwined in intent.
No, Nero is not the anti-Christ. The name Nero does not add up to 666. But, VICARIUS FILII DEI does. It is the name of a man who considers himself like the most high and calls himself Christ on earth, who says he is Christ's representative on earth, and usurps with this contention the place of the Holy Spirit, who is the real represenative of Christ on earth.
For a good study, try 'Daniel and the Revelation' by Uriah Smith. You can read it on line and you will find it interesting and helpful for study purposes.
God bless.
The apocalypse denotes the last days of this planet as we know it. The Roman conquest of the Jews pales in comparison.

"Let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit!"
2 Cor. 7:1

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by 1.61803, posted 07-15-2004 1:22 PM 1.61803 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by 1.61803, posted 07-16-2004 2:17 PM PecosGeorge has replied

  
PecosGeorge
Member (Idle past 6873 days)
Posts: 863
From: Texas
Joined: 04-09-2004


Message 22 of 57 (124863)
07-15-2004 11:22 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by sidelined
07-15-2004 10:53 PM


Re: I can help
huh?

This message is a reply to:
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pink sasquatch
Member (Idle past 6023 days)
Posts: 1567
Joined: 06-10-2004


Message 23 of 57 (124897)
07-16-2004 1:07 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by PecosGeorge
07-08-2004 12:15 PM


literal code
Pecos,
Just want to get your ideas straight:
You state the Book of Revelation is in code.
What about the rest of the Bible - should any of it be taken literally, or is it all symbolism?
If some parts are in code and others not, where do they hand out the secret decoder rings that allow us to know the literal from the coded verses?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by PecosGeorge, posted 07-08-2004 12:15 PM PecosGeorge has replied

Replies to this message:
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 24 of 57 (124946)
07-16-2004 5:50 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by pink sasquatch
07-16-2004 1:07 AM


Re: literal code
You state the Book of Revelation is in code.
this is actually a pretty common thought. personally, i think it's a message to the church of rome to incite a coup and overthrow nero.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by pink sasquatch, posted 07-16-2004 1:07 AM pink sasquatch has not replied

  
PecosGeorge
Member (Idle past 6873 days)
Posts: 863
From: Texas
Joined: 04-09-2004


Message 25 of 57 (124965)
07-16-2004 9:47 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by pink sasquatch
07-16-2004 1:07 AM


Re: literal code
Most of the Bible is the account and example of peoples who, tho belonging to God (which we all do), were in open rebellion against him. And, of course, the consequences of that rebellion stated over and over, unheeded consequences realized in punishment, or death, etc. On a smaller scale, similar to parent/children relationships where disobeyed rules were/are followed by consequences.
The reason Revelation is so different is because of what it reveals, and that is the anti-Christ, that man of sin. This person would have stopped its inclusion in scripture had he understood the meaning. But God controls all things, so there it is, revealing. Try the book I recommend, Daniel and the Revelation by Uriah Smith (I keep wanting to say Uriah Heap, LOL)
The ring is found in history. Try the book.

This message is a reply to:
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1.61803
Member (Idle past 1504 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 26 of 57 (125029)
07-16-2004 2:17 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by PecosGeorge
07-15-2004 11:20 PM


Re: Why bother
Caesar Nero offical title written in Hebrew =nrwn qsr
which if added together equals 666. Nero was contemporary with the writing of the book. Nero persecuted the Christians. Nero was the seventh emperor of Rome. Nero was known amoung his conterporares as the "beast". So what makes more sense 666 means the devil :an imaginary mythological entity created from babylonian mythology passed down to the Jews OR Nero, the evil emperor of Rome that fits the description and time line? Sure you will pick the devil because Nero would debauch your beliefs. But again dogma always wins out over common sense in the religous arena.

"One is punished most for ones virtues" Fredrick Neitzche

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by PecosGeorge, posted 07-15-2004 11:20 PM PecosGeorge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by Chiroptera, posted 07-16-2004 4:31 PM 1.61803 has replied
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Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 27 of 57 (125061)
07-16-2004 4:31 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by 1.61803
07-16-2004 2:17 PM


Re: Why bother
quote:
Nero was the seventh emperor of Rome.
Actually, he was only the fifth -- for some reason, I think Augustus is counted as the first (perhaps the first to officially adopt the title?)
On the other hand, Nero was the sixth (and last, I believe) Caesar; there was Julius, Augustus, Tiberias, Caligula, Claudius, and then Nero. I don't know if this is an allowed interpretation, but could the 666 be emphasising the number 6 through repetition? Then the number of his name being 6 has a very prosaic meaning -- the sixth Caesar.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by 1.61803, posted 07-16-2004 2:17 PM 1.61803 has replied

Replies to this message:
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1.61803
Member (Idle past 1504 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 28 of 57 (125072)
07-16-2004 4:56 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by Chiroptera
07-16-2004 4:31 PM


Re: Why bother
i stand corrected.

This message is a reply to:
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PecosGeorge
Member (Idle past 6873 days)
Posts: 863
From: Texas
Joined: 04-09-2004


Message 29 of 57 (125130)
07-16-2004 9:15 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by 1.61803
07-16-2004 2:17 PM


What criteria
does Nero not fit going by the book.....of Revelation that is. The reach of the man of sin is far greater than that of Nero, and Nero is not replaceable as is the man of sin.
Add up VICARIUS FILII DEI and see what you come up with in Latin, Greek, and Aramaic, all the Bible languages.
Then do some research into Daniel and the Revelation.
Bon chance!

"Let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit!"
2 Cor. 7:1

This message is a reply to:
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Nasa
Inactive Member


Message 30 of 57 (125142)
07-16-2004 10:05 PM


,..... " If you can not believe the writings of Moses, then how can you believe me". Johns gospel.
No one can know but by faith or by the experience of the Lords Holy spirit, -if any, if not all the books of the bible are true or false.
Its faith, read some seed.........
A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic - on a level with the man who says he is a poached egg - or else he would be the devil of hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the son of God; or else a madman or something worse.... but let us not come up with any patronising nonsense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to.
C. S. Lewis.
Bernard Ramm, a professor of theology in the USA said this about the words and teachings of Jesus:
They are read more, quoted more, loved more, believed more, and translated more because they are the greatest words ever spoken....Their greatness lies in the pure lucid spirituality in dealing clearly, definitively, and authoritatively with the greatest problems that throb in the human breast....No other man's words have the appeal of Jesus' words because no other man can answer these fundamental human questions as Jesus answered them. They are the kind of words and kind of answers we would expect God to give.
Read on, see if you will find the belief that there is a God and Jesus is his spoken word, and the word tells us of creation as apose to evolution.
Many of the Laws in the west were originally based on the teachings of Jesus. We are making progress in virtually every field of science and technology. We travel faster and know more, and yet in 2,000 years no one has improved on the moral teaching of Jesus Chirst. Could that teaching really have come from a con man or a mad man?
Nicky Gumbel, Theology and Writer Oxford.
[The] Church.....beginning from a handful of uneducated fishermen and tax gatherers, swept across the whole known world in the next three hundred years. It is a perfectly amazing story of peaceful revolution that has no parallel in the history of the world. It came about because Christians were able to say to inquirers: "Jesus did not only die for you. He is alive! You can meet him and discover for yourself the reality we are talking about!" They did, and joined the church and the church, born from that Easter, gave spread everywhere.
Michael Green, Writer.
Now there was about this time, Jesus a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man, for he was a doer of wonderful works - a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews, and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Chirst; and when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at first did not forsake him, for he appeared to them alive again the third day, as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him; and the tribe of Christians so named after him, are not extinct at this day.
Josephus, Historian. AD 37.
Is not the nature of Christ, in the words of the New testament, enough to pierce to the soul anyone with a soul to be piered?....he still looms over the world, his message still clear, his pity still infinite, his consolation still effective, his words still full of glory, wisdom and love.
Bernard Levin. Columnist.
In many of the popular music trends of the past twenty years or so there is a cry concerning a: Loss of direction, lost hope, no faith, a wanting to live for ever, a bitterness to an unseen lie, a hate in being alone, to have satisfaction, a constant craving, a sin, of help, of a sound of silence, a feeling of falling, a feeling of fear, a wanting to go home, a need of peace and an unseen enemy. The chorus from a famous song sums it up. " Constant craving has always been." Can you sing what you dont believe? Can you write what you are not feeling at the time, when under no pressure to do otherwise? No matter, because the most amazing thing is Jesus has delt with and has answers for all of these cries!
Nathan Price.
I have been used for many years to studying the histories of other times, and to examining and weighing the evidence of those who have written about them, and I know of no one fact in the history of mankind which is proved by better and fuller evidence of every sort, to the understanding of a fair inquirer, than the great sign which God has given us that Christ died and rose again from the dead.
Professor Thomas Arnold, Chair of Modern History, Oxford.
The first thing we must learn about him is that we should have been absolutely entranced by his company. Jesus was irresistibly attractive as a man....What they crucified was a young man, vital full of life and the joy of it, the Lord of life itself, and even more the Lord of laughter, someone so utterly attractive that people followed him for the sheer fun of it......We need to recapture the vision of this glorious and happy man whose mere presence filled his companions with delight. No pale Galilean he, but a veritable Pied piper of Hamelin who would have the children laughing all round him and squealing with pleasure and joy as he picked them up.
Lord Hailsham, Former Lord Chancellor.
Following on from the first quote by C. S. Lewis:
We are faced then with a frightening alternative. The man we are talking about was (and is) just what he said or else a lunatic or something worse. Now it seems to me obvious that he was neither a lunatic nor a fiend; and consequently, hower strange or terrifying or unlikely it may seem, I have to accept the view that he was and is God. God has landed on this enemy occupied world in human form.
Each and all [sins] have crowds of unhappy prisoners bound hand and foot in their chains....The wretched prisoners....boast sometimes that they are eminently free...There is no slavery like this. Sin is indeed the hardest of all task-masters. Misery and disappointment by the way, despair and hell in the end - these are the only wages that sin pays to its servants.
J. C. Ryle. Former Bishop of Liverpool.
What do all true followers of Jesus say and love to sing of him? "He has set me free!"
Does anybody know what we are living for? - You can have everything in the world and still be the loneliest man, and that is the most bitter type of loneliness.
Freddie Mercury, lead singer, Queen.
I am the way, I am the life. - I am the bread of life.
Jesus Christ, Son of God.
A note of what a person said after coming to chirst:
I now have hope where previously there was only despair. I can forgive now, where before there was only coldness....God is so alive for me. I can feel him guiding me and the complete and utter loneliness which I have been feeling has gone. God is filling a deep, deep void.
Questions of life, Nicky Gumbel.
There are many fears that plague the human soul: Kenophobia, fear of empty rooms. Limnophobia, fear of lakes. Microphobia, fear of germs. Ochlophobia, fear of crowds. Paralipophobia, fear of neglect of duty. Tachophobia, fear of speed. Zelophobia, fear of jealousy. Triskaidekapobia fear of thirteen. Chionophobia, fear of snow, and many, many more. These fears are very real to the people that have them. Yet there is a writen word that says not one of us has to have any fear but in God. The word of God, in just one account of many,........
..".....The Lord is my light and my salvation, whom shall I fear? The Lord is the defense of my life; whom shall I dread !...."....
Psalm 27.

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by Yaro, posted 07-16-2004 11:07 PM Nasa has replied
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 Message 40 by Nighttrain, posted 07-22-2004 8:59 PM Nasa has not replied
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