positive evidence of creationism

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Originally posted by TrueCreation:
"the part about the rain is a common argument from creationists i've spoken to. As for the rain,it filled the WHOLE world in 40 days...that implies extremely violent downpooring rain to fill the world with water in such a short time."
--I surelly hope you are not implying that the rain was the source of the flood water, as this is a misunderstanding of the Flood. It simply 'rained', it does not have to be anything that you say it was, and correct me if I am wrong.

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"Furthermore,in your pool experiment,was it empty when you placed the twigs and leaves and the insects?"
--No it had water in it. what relevance does it make?

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"Did you fill it for 40 days making sure that water was falling on every part of that space at once? did you leave the environement as such for 6 months?"
--Like I said this was a minimal experiment to explain to you that insects can live on vegetation mats, and they do, unless you can tell me why I am wrong. As also what is the relevance of 'filling it for 40 days making sure that water was falling on every part of the space at once'.

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Well,the Bible says that it rained all over the world for 40 days and 40 nights until the world was covered with water...what am i supposed to conclude from this?If your pool was already full when you placed the insects on the leaves,you installed them on the environement yourself,thus negating the obvious fact that during the alledged flood,the insects would have had to locate a shelter themselves,according to their respective motricity.As for the relevence of filling the pool for a duration of 40 days with water falling on every area at once(raining all over the earth for 40 days),this creates a specific environement and threat to the insects. Many insects are killed outright if they are hit by heavy drops of rain and many more insects will drown if they are wet,even on dry land. And there is a stark difference between 1 day and 6 months+. For starter,most insects dont even live 6 months and require specific environement for reproduction. Also,all insects require food,which coulkd not be provided by remaining for months on a twig.

"Well,the Bible says that it rained all over the world for 40 days and 40 nights until the world was covered with water...what am i supposed to conclude from this?"
--This is correct, but your missunderstanded conclusion of since it says that water rained on the earth for this time and thus you conclude that that was the source of the water is incorrect, the bible says that the fountains of the deep broke open, and in theory from the magmatic activity, water would boil and water vapor would be the cause of the rain, some theory 10 years ago suggested that this water was from the vapor canopy, which is not correct and up-to-date."If your pool was already full when you placed the insects on the leaves,you installed them on the environement yourself,thus negating the obvious fact that during the alledged flood,the insects would have had to locate a shelter themselves,according to their respective motricity."
--If you have ever noticed in floods, and even small lake floods after a good rain such as in my back yard, you will notice that insects definantly do not sink very well, I am not sure of the scientific reasoning, but it is because of the almost bubble that it encloses itself in and attaches to their body, this is why insects can float, and they will float untill they find something to get onto such as these vegetation mats, in my experiment as I believe I explained, all the insects did not stay on there, many were struggling to stay on from the rain, but they were easilly able to latch on to leaves and stay in there, and I also noticed they run for shelter inside the vegetation towards to top where they are less likely to be misplaced. these vegetation mats, contrary to my 3square foot 6inch high mat, would have been many feet high, 10-20ft+ and would have covered very large amounts of space."As for the relevence of filling the pool for a duration of 40 days with water falling on every area at once(raining all over the earth for 40 days),this creates a specific environement and threat to the insects. Many insects are killed outright if they are hit by heavy drops of rain and many more insects will drown if they are wet,even on dry land. And there is a stark difference between 1 day and 6 months+."
--for one, this would only be a problem for 40 days, not 6 months, after the 40 days, survival would have been absolutely no problem."For starter,most insects dont even live 6 months and require specific environement for reproduction. Also,all insects require food,which coulkd not be provided by remaining for months on a twig."
--Insects would have eaten each other and eaten vegetation and bacterias as I believe some insects eat. Some insects require specialized environments because they are specialized, they were not specialized during and before the flood. Such as penguins, some can live close to the equator such as the galopagos Islands, and some are confined to the poles, if you switch them around their gonna die. Or the panda bears well balanced diet, variation had not yet taken place to these extremities.------------------

Some insects do have the capacity to float and even swim to safety but many do not...flying insects such as bees and flys drown when on water,even if they dont sink imediately and all flying insects whould have ad one hell of a time in remaining airborn through 40 days of deluvian rains. anthropods like large spiders could never have survived a world wide flood.As for the fountain of the deep argument,that one has always puzzled me. and on the talk origin web site,they exposed a lot of very obvious problems with that theory. How could there have been enough water to cover the world highest peek contained under the earths crust,what could have caused it to shoot out of wherever it was contained and what could have kept it from returning imediatly in its container below the earth

"Some insects do have the capacity to float and even swim to safety but many do not...flying insects such as bees and flys drown when on water,even if they dont sink imediately and all flying insects whould have ad one hell of a time in remaining airborn through 40 days of deluvian rains. anthropods like large spiders could never have survived a world wide flood."
--Insects such as these would have had themslves in the center of these vegetation mats, there are leaves that are emensly large, even ft in diameter. Anthropids such as spiders could have survived doing simmilarly the same thing."As for the fountain of the deep argument,that one has always puzzled me. and on the talk origin web site,they exposed a lot of very obvious problems with that theory."
--Point out some and we can discuss them."How could there have been enough water to cover the world highest peek contained under the earths crust."
--The high mountains were causes of plate tectonic activity as I have explained and is evident as I explained earlier that activity moved hundreds of times faster than it did today during ancient lava flows through magnetic plarity variations considered to take tens of thousands of years to variate."what could have caused it to shoot out of wherever it was contained and what could have kept it from returning imediatly in its container below the earth."
--A cause would have been increasing preasure on the earths crust, such as how todays volcano's are caused. Not much water though some would have burst through these underwater volcano's but the 'problem' of it not returning to the earths mantle, wouldhave been preasure, as it was the cause of the burst in the first place.------------------

But this leave theory also assumes calm water,which oceans are not. No lake or pool environement can replicate the conditions of a world wide flood and so your experiment is at best a poor aproximation and that is a generous estimate on my part. There would have been far too many elements stacked against survival of potential adrift insects for it to be even remotely likely

"But this leave theory also assumes calm water,which oceans are not. No lake or pool environement can replicate the conditions of a world wide flood and so your experiment is at best a poor aproximation and that is a generous estimate on my part. There would have been far too many elements stacked against survival of potential adrift insects for it to be even remotely likely."
--Sure it wouldn't have been calm, but there also would not have been emense tidal waves that would drown them.------------------

Have you ever looked at an ocean during a storm,let alone a 40 day long storm? 30 foot tidal waves are quite common during those events.

"Have you ever looked at an ocean during a storm,let alone a 40 day long storm? 30 foot tidal waves are quite common during those events."
--Who said it was a storm, also, tidal effects would be a factor of water depth also, thus insects would have been abundant in the areas where it was calmer, and more rare where there was catastrophic water effects, need there be any.-------------------

well,if you ever hear of someone doing an experiment that approximates with a decent degree of accuracy the conditions of a world wide flood for the insects,lemme know. Until i see evidence that this could have occured as you described,i'm afraid that common sense dictates that i proceed under the more likely assumption that insects could not have survived a world wide flood.

"And how exactly were Noah and his menagery NOT poached as a result? And why is there no mention of these conditions in any historical account anywhere on earth,the Bible included"
--I believe that I have adiquately portrayed the feasability of the survival of insects and plants throughout the catastrophic event, and I know that this is where it pretty much will always come to, simmilarely what your conclusion is. I do think this would be a good experiment, not just for insects, but for animals and the geologic sorting of strata, but such an experiment would be abslutely catastrophically high, inconceivable for our day unless there were organizations that actually thought this relevant. I would estimate that you would need an area equivelant to twice the dome size in that movie the truman show. Quite large, but untill then, we can only propose feasability as I have done.------------------

And as i said,your proposed experiment is lacking far too many key elements to have any credibility as an aproximation of world wide flood conditions...meaning thatthe fact that insects survived in the limited scome of your experiment is in no way an indication that insects could have survived the actual flood.

"And as i said,your proposed experiment is lacking far too many key elements to have any credibility as an aproximation of world wide flood conditions...meaning thatthe fact that insects survived in the limited scome of your experiment is in no way an indication that insects could have survived the actual flood."
--What variables and factors have I missed?-------------------

go back a few post...i've enumerated some of them.

"go back a few post...i've enumerated some of them."
--I can't find any that I have not adequately responded to, mind if you list some?------------------

well,as i said,the likelyhood that insects could last for 6 months adrift on a leaf on the ocean is next to non existant if you know anything about insect biology and life cycles. Your answer was to assume that insects back then were completely different than they are today. I've also stated that the 40 day long downpoor itself would have been the death of most insects but you countered by saying that it didn't rain all that much. Then i explained to you that while some insects can survive on the surface of water of a limited time at least,most insect will drown by simply being wet...you didn't even answer that one. need i go on?