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Author Topic:   A conversation on faith (riVeRraT and arachnophilia)
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1343 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 16 of 29 (279516)
01-16-2006 3:59 PM


matthew 5:22
i've chosen to post this here, instead of the gay marriage thread, because i think it better fits our discussion.
quote:
Mat 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
quote:
Rev. Bob Arthur, author of Homosexuality and the Conservative Christian, a former professor of linguistic studies at Bob Jones University, has written the following:
We all know that Jesus spoke Aramaic during his life on earth. Aramaic was the popular language of the Hebrew people at that time. Hebrew and Aramaic are very close to each other linguistically and much of the vocabulary is the same.
Most commentators have traditionally thought that the word Raca was from the Aramaic word reyqa’ or reyqah in Aramaic which means empty one. The Greek of Matthew does not translate the Aramaic word in Greek, but rather transliterates it into Greek letters: raka.
Now, if the commentators are correct in their surmise that the word is from reyqa’ or reyqah in Aramaic, that is a derivative from the verb riyq which means to be empty, thus making the modern translations of “empty-headed” or “foolish” appropriate. However, since the Greek transliterates the word raka, not reka (the closest Greek could come to the Aramaic reyqa’ or reyqah), I suspect it actually is a transliteration of the Aramaic rakkah. Rakkah comes from the Aramaic verb rekak, which is the same as the Hebrew verb rakak, which means to be tender, weak or soft. That in itself does not have any special significance . However, what makes this interesting is the fact that raka is the feminine form of the adjective used to describe the word “brother.” We have no other Biblical example of this adjective used in the feminine form to describe a masculine noun. This in essence makes it have a very derogatory significance. In a patriarchal culture where the Hebrew man praised God every morning that he was created a man and not a woman, to have someone call him weak in the feminine sense was a great insult. About the closest we can come in the English idiom would be to call someone who valued his macho image a sissy . Now, whether the Aramaic use of this term has the same homosexual undertones as the English epithet sissy does is unclear. However, the calling of such derogatory names is condemned by Jesus in Matthew 5:22.
http://www.freeingthespirit.org/Homosexuality&Bible20.htm
just thought it was kind of interesting, and might add to the debate.

אָרַח

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by riVeRraT, posted 01-28-2006 2:04 PM arachnophilia has not replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 17 of 29 (282170)
01-28-2006 2:00 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by arachnophilia
01-15-2006 9:18 PM


Re: christianity and homosexuality
Hello!
Well thanks for hoping the other thread I started. I didn't really start that thread to argue about gay marriage, but it turned into it. I was just trying to point out how stupid I think conservatives can be.
But it led me to start seriously thinking about why I think the way I do. But not from a religious stand point, but from a secular one.
I went from thinking is was ok, to thinking it wasn't in my life, before I ever got close to the Lord. So I am challenging myself on that.
Towards the end of that thread I present many reasons why I feel the way I do, and they are all valid reasons. The discussion we are having in here has turned into why we should think it is ok, or not ok, according to our faith.
I will admit that you will have a hard time convinceing me that we should think it's ok according to our faith. I have spent a lot of time considering this, but I am always open to knew arguements about it.
well, when jesus said "he who is without sin may throw the first stone" he was in the position to do so himself. we are not in a position to judge.
Of course we are in a position to judge. That's all we do in life. Anyone who thinks they can go through life wihout judging is fooling himself.
The bible says
quote:
Matthew 7:2
For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.
So we are to be fair in our judging. I expressed my flesh desires in that other thread. But I separate my flesh desires from my spirit desires, and what I think God wants from me.
If I had a desire to be gay, just like my other sinful desires, I would think is wrong. Therefor I am judging homosexuals the same way I expect to be judged.
What I am not doing is condemning them. That is where my acceptance of the act of being gay comes into play.
I am against the idea of gay marriage, because to me it is just not a marriage. A marriage is a man and a woman uniting to be one. Doesn't matter what your desires are, doesn't matter what you think love is. Doesn't matter if some gay couples can raise kids better than straight couples, a marriage is a man and a woman.
To say straight marriages are worse off to raise kids than gay couples, and that is a reason why we should allow gay marriages is the wrong way to fix things.
If straight marriage is broken, then it needs to be fixed. Allowing gays to be married will not fix this.
Jesus said:
Matthew 19
4"Haven't you read," he replied, "that at the beginning the Creator 'made them male and female,' 5 and said, 'For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh'? 6 So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate."
Man and woman, not man and man.
So you say we are not in a position to judge?
That is not correct. If we allow it, then we have judged it. We judged it ok.
It is not ok according to our faith, just like all the other sins. That is the way we should think as Christians. We are not of this world but of a Spiritual one led by the truth.
What we will not do is condemn it.
Does it cause trouble? You bet it does.
[quote] Matthew 10
21"Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; children will rebel against their parents and have them put to death. 22All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.[/qs]
Jesus didn't come to make peace.
quote:
Matthew 10:
32"Whoever acknowledges me before men, I will also acknowledge him before my Father in heaven. 33But whoever disowns me before men, I will disown him before my Father in heaven.
34"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35For I have come to turn
" 'a man against his father,
a daughter against her mother,
a daughter-in-law against her motherinlaw”
36a man's enemies will be the members of his own household.
However I admire your will to be at peace with everyone, for there is a large part of me that desires the same. But it would seem that no matter how hard we try we cannot make everyone happy, and the bible explains it as well.
No matter what you are "on a side", I choose to take sides with Jesus to the best of my ability.
If I take sides with ay people, then I feel like I am going against Jesus. Remember if I take sides with gay people, then there will be a whole other group that hates me, because I side with gay people. So matter which side I go to, someone will be upset with me.
Why should I even care who I upset, God is the only one who I should acre if I upset. He sees my heart, he knows how I feel about it. I do not mean anyone harm by saying, same sex marriage is not a marriage.
People will be offended, but I don't see it as my fault. My heart is clean, my conscience is clear.
I am examining deeply if that is correct or not.
but is reproduction all there is to life? i mean, if 1 guy were alone on a desert island, he wouldn't be able to reproduce either. should we outlaw being single?
You can be single if you want to devote more time to the Lord, but the bible says if you cannot ccontain yourself, then you should marry a woman.
If a man is on a deserted islan, then the choice is clear, that was a bad analogy.
there's lots of things we do in life that have very, very little to do with making babies. i'm an artist -- what purpose does that serve on a desert island? would i be drawing pictures in the sand? i doubt it.
I disagree, I think you would be drawing pistures in the sand. I am an artist as well. I sculpt things from metal, draw, and photograph. I would gladly do all these things on a deserted island, because that is what I was created for. I do it for God, and myself. I do it for the glory of God. If I don't the very rocks around will.
Do you believe that God created everything?
right, but he never said that he wouldn't accept us the way we are. if jesus excluded people based on their continued behaviour, we'd ALL be out.
I understand what you are saying, but Jesus cleary explains what will happen to some people, and what comes from their hearts.
well not recognizing a gay marriage is really sort of similar to saying you don't accept them.
as being married. I accept them, not the act of being gay.
Just like I would accept a loved one who is a drug addict, but not accept the drugs.
well, exchange "religion" for "personal preference" or whatever it may be. the point i was trying to make was that we should not vote for our own personal opinions of what is right and wrong, but in a way that is right: not forcing those opinions on someone else.
Well then you better start explain where we get this wrong and right thing, if it isn't from our morals. You need to explain a code, or systematic way to determine just what is wrong and right.
Lay down the law why don't you?
Then explain biblically why it is ok.
i don't think i agree with that. the problem with being gay is that it's not accepted. the more it's accepted, the more we hear about it. but that doesn't equate to there being more or less gay people. many closetted gay people hide it, and are even married to women. you find higher ang higher percentages of this the less and less homosexuality is accepted.
That is not an absolute. There have been studies made that explain how the male has been diluted from who he was designed to be, and makes it easier for him to behave like a woman.
Who knows? With all the chemicals in the world today, and birth defects, if people are really born gay, whos to say that it isn't our own fault?
I have a few defects of my own.
i think we'd do better as a society to have more happy relationships between men and men, or women and women, than more unhappy ones between the two genders.
I think thats a lie.
Tell me, what does your heart desire most? Pick from the following to be raised from( assume that all will love you and do what is considered right for you):
1 Happy loving nurturing biological parents
2 Happy loving nurturing gay parents
3 Single parent
4 adopted parents
Pick one.
if you look at the jewish interpretation of marriage and sex, they view it as a blessing,
I am being a bit of a wise guy with this answer, but you think being raped is a blessing?
but we can't go tell someone else that they shouldn't be allowed to do it, unless it violates the rights of another.
I don't agree with that.
Think bout abortion, I guess the fetus has no rights.
Think about suicide.
Think about the fact that it disgusts me to see 2 men kissing. (just being honest)
My tough shit uh?
I don't want to live in a society that thinks that way.
or fear of being killed or harrassed. they do, and often to disasterous results.
I sypathize with that, but the same would hold true for many things that I would want to do in public.
what defines a marraige? legally, i mean, excluding the bible?
This is a conversation on faith. Thats why I got into it in the coffee house.
I think my reasons hold some validity.
well, i'm trying to change your mind the right way.
and I appreciate it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by arachnophilia, posted 01-15-2006 9:18 PM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by crashfrog, posted 02-03-2006 9:54 AM riVeRraT has not replied
 Message 22 by arachnophilia, posted 02-03-2006 10:51 AM riVeRraT has replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 18 of 29 (282172)
01-28-2006 2:04 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by arachnophilia
01-16-2006 3:59 PM


Re: matthew 5:22
Mat 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause
I am not angry, and I do have cause to believe the way I do. That is what I am examining about myself.
I do not believe all that translation crap, I feel it is the devil trying to change what always was.
Plus, I am not calling anyone names, you are what you eat lol j/k
That makes me a pussy.
I mean you are what comes out of your heart. That's the truth.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by arachnophilia, posted 01-16-2006 3:59 PM arachnophilia has not replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 19 of 29 (283582)
02-03-2006 6:39 AM


I also want to qualify something.
Just because I believe that being gay is not ok in the eyes of the Lord, based on the bible does not mean 2 things.
1 That I am judging it.
2 That our governement should follow this based on what the bible says.

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by arachnophilia, posted 02-03-2006 10:56 AM riVeRraT has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 20 of 29 (283608)
02-03-2006 9:54 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by riVeRraT
01-28-2006 2:00 PM


(original contents suppressed)
great debate thread
Tell me, what does your heart desire most? Pick from the following to be raised from( assume that all will love you and do what is considered right for you):
1 Happy loving nurturing biological parents
2 Happy loving nurturing gay parents
3 Single parent
4 adopted parents
I noticed that you left out an element from your list: 5) Gay parents trapped in a loveless, empty heterosexual marriage in order to keep up appearances.
Since that's what you'd be sentencing a lot of gay people to, it's rather disingenuous for you to leave that off the list.
This message has been edited by AdminNWR, 02-03-2006 09:31 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by riVeRraT, posted 01-28-2006 2:00 PM riVeRraT has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by arachnophilia, posted 02-03-2006 10:01 AM crashfrog has not replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1343 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 21 of 29 (283610)
02-03-2006 10:01 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by crashfrog
02-03-2006 9:54 AM


crash -- get out
my debate. not yours.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by crashfrog, posted 02-03-2006 9:54 AM crashfrog has not replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1343 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 22 of 29 (283623)
02-03-2006 10:51 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by riVeRraT
01-28-2006 2:00 PM


Re: christianity and homosexuality
I will admit that you will have a hard time convinceing me that we should think it's ok according to our faith. I have spent a lot of time considering this, but I am always open to knew arguements about it.
well, it's not so much that it's ok. just that it's no worse than anything else we humans do. the portray of human in the bible is sinful by nature -- even the perfect job is dirty next to god. there is commandment after commandment that we break everyday as christians. we submit ourselves to abominations -- heck, our national symbol, the eagle, is an abomination, not to mention that it could be considered a graven image.
these things aren't "ok" either. but why do we ignore them, and focus on the gay issue? we have no intent on changing. i don't see christians petitioning to change the national bird because it's unbiblical. why is homosexuality so important?
i suppose you could say that the second story in the bible defines marriage. but the FIRST story in the bible defines the sabbath -- and we ignore that. my problem is that people are picking and choosing what to condemn or speak out against, when they have many faults that ae equally as serious themselves.
Of course we are in a position to judge. That's all we do in life. Anyone who thinks they can go through life wihout judging is fooling himself.
The bible says
quote:
Matthew 7:2
For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.
So we are to be fair in our judging.
that verse is directly preceded by:
quote:
Mat 7:1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
jesus is telling us the consequence of judging: we will be judged in the same way, with the same standard, and the same harshed that we judged other with. the fair bit is that we are judged by our own standards. i prefer not to condemn anyone based on choices they make -- because i do not want to be condemned myself. whether jesus is talking about judgement day, or just putting yourself in the other man's shoes, i think the message is pretty clear: treat others how you want to be treated.
If I had a desire to be gay, just like my other sinful desires, I would think is wrong. Therefor I am judging homosexuals the same way I expect to be judged.
and it would also be perfectly valid for me to accuse you of eating seafood. i'm sure you do. one abomination for another. but does it make sense to do this? christ came so that we could all be saved. we are all sinful, and we all need forgiveness. why should we sit around accusing each other of our own sins -- if we've been forgiven of them by the person who matters?
I am against the idea of gay marriage, because to me it is just not a marriage. A marriage is a man and a woman uniting to be one. Doesn't matter what your desires are, doesn't matter what you think love is. Doesn't matter if some gay couples can raise kids better than straight couples, a marriage is a man and a woman.
why?
If straight marriage is broken, then it needs to be fixed. Allowing gays to be married will not fix this.
Jesus said:
Matthew 19
4"Haven't you read," he replied, "that at the beginning the Creator 'made them male and female,' 5 and said, 'For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh'? 6 So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate."
Man and woman, not man and man.
that was jesus speaking against divorce. according to jesus, divorce is tantamount to adultery:
quote:
Mat 19:9 And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.
and the punishment for adultery is death:
quote:
Lev 20:10 And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.
so really, why aren't christians campaigning for laws against divorce? it's straight out of jesus's mouth, literally in the bible. it is desecrating god's holy union of marriage -- at least as much two guys getting married. so why is divorce legal?
Jesus didn't come to make peace.
i think he was being ironic, there. and also right: how many wars have been fought in his name? how many families divided by religion? yet nowhere in jesus's entire teaching does it tell us to take up the sword that jesus said he was bringing. i would call that prophecy, not commandment.
No matter what you are "on a side", I choose to take sides with Jesus to the best of my ability.
If I take sides with ay people, then I feel like I am going against Jesus. Remember if I take sides with gay people, then there will be a whole other group that hates me, because I side with gay people. So matter which side I go to, someone will be upset with me.
remember, jesus died for his beliefs. so did some of the apostles. and so did many, many christians in the early church. in jesus's case, it was for fighting the religious establishment -- one that said that certain people were unclean, and not welcome in the house of god. jesus died for these people. jesus died for us.
i think it is a mistake to practice the very ideology that christ gave his life to overturn. i side with jesus too, to the best of my ability. and i'm not worried about what the christians think of me as a result.
Why should I even care who I upset, God is the only one who I should acre if I upset. He sees my heart, he knows how I feel about it. I do not mean anyone harm by saying, same sex marriage is not a marriage.
People will be offended, but I don't see it as my fault.
but we, however, to treat people in the ways that we wish to be treated. and we are to have compassion, and accept people, regardless of their sins. it's not about what they think of us at all. it's how we pay back the compassion god has shown for us. and it's what they think of jesus, not us. we are his representation on earth.
My heart is clean, my conscience is clear.
but only because of christ's sacrifice. without him, we are all lost.
You can be single if you want to devote more time to the Lord, but the bible says if you cannot ccontain yourself, then you should marry a woman.
If a man is on a deserted islan, then the choice is clear, that was a bad analogy.
right, but i think it sells marriage short to pretend it's just about screwing. cause, well, ask any married couple how often they bump uglies. when marriage is first defined in genesis 2, it's for companionship, not sex. adam is lonely, because there is no other like him. god makes woman to keep him company, not so they can have kids.
I disagree, I think you would be drawing pistures in the sand. I am an artist as well. I sculpt things from metal, draw, and photograph. I would gladly do all these things on a deserted island, because that is what I was created for. I do it for God, and myself. I do it for the glory of God. If I don't the very rocks around will.
right, but what does it have to do with squeezing out some offspring? why do i do it? why do you do it? just to get chicks? cause, well, it sure isn't working for me.
as being married. I accept them, not the act of being gay.
Just like I would accept a loved one who is a drug addict, but not accept the drugs.
through many bad relationships, i've found that you either love someone for what and who they are, or you want them to change.
Well then you better start explain where we get this wrong and right thing, if it isn't from our morals. You need to explain a code, or systematic way to determine just what is wrong and right.
Lay down the law why don't you?
Then explain biblically why it is ok.
i think you're still missing what i'm trying to say. i'm saying that we shouldn't vote to outlaw things that we think are wrong, personally, but rather we should vote in a way that represents the way we'd want to be treated. it's not voting for you morality: the WAY you vote has to be moral too.
legislating religion and personal opinion is wrong, any way you look at it. it is damaging to both religion and government.
That is not an absolute. There have been studies made that explain how the male has been diluted from who he was designed to be, and makes it easier for him to behave like a woman.
farbeit from me to make an argument that sounds feminist, but that's a little sexist. people come in all different sizes and shapes, and some men are more macho than others.
and, uh, the macho ones are quite often gay. curious point, that.
I think thats a lie.
Tell me, what does your heart desire most? Pick from the following to be raised from( assume that all will love you and do what is considered right for you):
1 Happy loving nurturing biological parents
2 Happy loving nurturing gay parents
3 Single parent
4 adopted parents
Pick one.
honestly? i'd take two of my father over my mother and father any day. but then, you don't know my mom. and what's wrong with adopted parents?
if you look at the jewish interpretation of marriage and sex, they view it as a blessing,
I am being a bit of a wise guy with this answer, but you think being raped is a blessing?
sorry, i wasn't clear. sex within marriage.
but we can't go tell someone else that they shouldn't be allowed to do it, unless it violates the rights of another.
I don't agree with that.
Think bout abortion, I guess the fetus has no rights.
that's on a sliding scale. the rights of the fetus are weighed against the rights of the mother to control what goes on inside her body without government intervention. as the pregnancy goes on, the rights of the baby have more and more rights.
Think about suicide.
what about it? do i have a right to not have my loved ones die? no, it could happen at any time by sheer accident, or biology, or act of god. did you mean assisted suicide? personally, i don't see why it's not legal.
Think about the fact that it disgusts me to see 2 men kissing. (just being honest)
My tough shit uh?
I don't want to live in a society that thinks that way.
congratulations, you do. welcome to america.
you do not have a right to not be disgusted, nor do you have a right to not be offended. two men kissing neither breaks your bones, nor picks your pocket, nor kills your dog. if it offends you, go somewhere else.
think about this. suppose christians reading the bible in public disgusts me. should we make a law that you can't read a bible in public? or should i suck it up and just ignore them?
I sypathize with that, but the same would hold true for many things that I would want to do in public.
like what?
[edit brenna caught a typo]
This message has been edited by spidey, 02-03-2006 05:33 PM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by riVeRraT, posted 01-28-2006 2:00 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by riVeRraT, posted 02-04-2006 12:20 AM arachnophilia has replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1343 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 23 of 29 (283627)
02-03-2006 10:56 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by riVeRraT
02-03-2006 6:39 AM


I also want to qualify something.
Just because I believe that being gay is not ok in the eyes of the Lord, based on the bible does not mean 2 things.
1 That I am judging it.
2 That our governement should follow this based on what the bible says.
does that mean that you think, legally, gays should be allowed all the same opportunities and rights as everyone else?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by riVeRraT, posted 02-03-2006 6:39 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by riVeRraT, posted 02-04-2006 12:25 AM arachnophilia has replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 24 of 29 (283792)
02-04-2006 12:20 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by arachnophilia
02-03-2006 10:51 AM


Re: christianity and homosexuality
jesus is telling us the consequence of judging: we will be judged in the same way, with the same standard, and the same harshed that we judged other with. the fair bit is that we are judged by our own standards. i prefer not to condemn anyone based on choices they make -- because i do not want to be condemned myself. whether jesus is talking about judgement day, or just putting yourself in the other man's shoes, i think the message is pretty clear: treat others how you want to be treated.
But that is exactly what I have been saying.
1 I am not condemning anyone
2 I expect to be judged in the same way, I do not expect laws allowing my favorite sin.
3 If I say its ok, then I still have judged it. If I say it's ok to sin, then do I love that person? no, Have I condemned them? no.
and it would also be perfectly valid for me to accuse you of eating seafood.
You keep bringing up these OT laws, which we do not have to follow anymore.
It's not what goes in your mouth, but what comes out of your heart.
Healing people on the Sabbath, my Lord?
Jesus fulfilled the law, do you understand what that means? I didn't for a long time.
a marriage is a man and a woman.
why?
Bible explains it clearly. Man and woman become one. Very simple.
Whether they have kids or not.
so really, why aren't christians campaigning for laws against divorce?
Of course they did. But the world won that battle. Selah.
Jesus didn't come to make peace.
i think he was being ironic
No he wasn't being ironic.
I will tell you what I think he meant.
He meant that if you choose to follow me, then there will have to be things that you change about yourself. (to be with Christ, you must be in Christ) The people around you will not understand this, and then there will be no peace between you. They may even understand it, but not choose it, so there still is no peace.
I am not talking about war started by man in Jesus name falsely.
He was talking about the difference between true believers, and those who don't.
Don't think for a second you can have peace with this world, just because you believe in Jesus.
And that statement there is probably my biggest problem with Christianity, and the world. But it is reality.
i think it is a mistake to practice the very ideology that christ gave his life to overturn.
It's not like he just came and died. He said many things while he was here. It's how I interpret them, and what I feel in my heart that brings me to these conclusions.
If I am wrong, then God will show me. I keep asking him to.
i side with jesus too, to the best of my ability. and i'm not worried about what the christians think of me as a result.
That I like about you, as long as your not close minded.
and we are to have compassion, and accept people, regardless of their sins.
Can you give some verse that back up that statement specifically?
I can find way more verses that spell out just the opposite.
We can forgive people, but we do not have to accept them. We only have to accept Jesus.
Loving someone does not include encouragement to sin.
My heart is clean, my conscience is clear.
but only because of christ's sacrifice. without him, we are all lost.
Agreed.
god makes woman to keep him company
So just how do they become one?
through many bad relationships, i've found that you either love someone for what and who they are,
So if drugs were killing your brother, would you then love drugs as well?
Would you even love the fact that he was doing them?
Or just forgive him, and ask God to show him the way.
legislating religion and personal opinion is wrong, any way you look at it. it is damaging to both religion and government.
On the other hand it is not the best idea in the world to create a society that allows you whatever you want.
i'd take two of my father over my mother and father any day. but then, you don't know my mom. and what's wrong with adopted parents?
You missed the point, or wait did you?
Your complaining about your mom (it's ok, I complain about mine too) but that is a sign that you desire it not to be that way.
Yea, what I got from that is exactly what I expected. You desire a healthy relationship with your mom and dad over anything else on that list. That would be your #1 choice, as would it be mine.
If we had a choice.
sorry, i wasn't clear. sex within marriage.
Oh, then I wake up very morning wanting to be blessed with a woman
the rights of the fetus are weighed against the rights of the mother to control what goes on inside her body without government intervention.
Doesn't she give up that right once she willingly has sex with a male?
I am pro choice, choose not to have sex unless you expect to have a kid.
Crap, almost perfect spelling, when I checked it. 2 mistakes.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by arachnophilia, posted 02-03-2006 10:51 AM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by arachnophilia, posted 02-04-2006 9:06 PM riVeRraT has replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 25 of 29 (283794)
02-04-2006 12:25 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by arachnophilia
02-03-2006 10:56 AM


does that mean that you think, legally, gays should be allowed all the same opportunities and rights as everyone else?
NO, I am saying biblically we shouldn't force it. Even though it is clearly a sin.
Sexualy immorality is the one sin that Jesus says to run from.
1 Corinthians 6:18
Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a man commits are outside his body, but he who sins sexually sins against his own body.
1 Corinthians 10:8
We should not commit sexual immorality, as some of them did”and in one day twenty-three thousand of them died.
There's more.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by arachnophilia, posted 02-03-2006 10:56 AM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by arachnophilia, posted 02-04-2006 9:09 PM riVeRraT has replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1343 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 26 of 29 (284035)
02-04-2006 9:06 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by riVeRraT
02-04-2006 12:20 AM


Re: christianity and homosexuality
But that is exactly what I have been saying.
1 I am not condemning anyone
2 I expect to be judged in the same way, I do not expect laws allowing my favorite sin.
3 If I say its ok, then I still have judged it. If I say it's ok to sin, then do I love that person? no, Have I condemned them? no.
well, i'm going to illustrate this point with your next one:
You keep bringing up these OT laws, which we do not have to follow anymore.
which is it? do we have to follow the law, or not? because it's really one or the other. we're either held to the law, or we're forgiven and it doesn't matter. if we're held to the law, don't expect forgiveness for eating seafood, ham and cheese sandwiches, and cutting your hair. if those things are ok, so is teh buttsechs.
but it is a double standard to say that you "do not expect laws allowing your favourite sin[s]" when you are clearly picking and choosing which laws you think apply.
Jesus fulfilled the law, do you understand what that means? I didn't for a long time.
and the first half of that statement was that jesus did not come to change the law. according to jesus, we are still held to it.
Bible explains it clearly. Man and woman become one. Very simple.
Whether they have kids or not.
according to the bible, woman is a derivative of man. god makes woman because she is like man, to provide company for man. marriage is defined when there are ONLY two people on the planet -- one male and one female.
so really, why aren't christians campaigning for laws against divorce?
Of course they did. But the world won that battle. Selah.
shelak: why are christians campaigning for laws against anything, if we are not justified by works, and not subject to the law of god?
and why give up on divorce? or the national symbol? these are also clearly against the law of god.
No he wasn't being ironic.
I will tell you what I think he meant.
He meant that if you choose to follow me, then there will have to be things that you change about yourself. (to be with Christ, you must be in Christ) The people around you will not understand this, and then there will be no peace between you. They may even understand it, but not choose it, so there still is no peace.
yes. what you said was jesus being ironic. do you think jesus means to cause fights and families to fall apart?
I am not talking about war started by man in Jesus name falsely.
He was talking about the difference between true believers, and those who don't.
you don't see how one can lead to the other? a difference in faith between abraham's two sons is still tearing apart the middle east today.
If I am wrong, then God will show me. I keep asking him to.
god works in mysterious ways. i personally think god tries to reach in obvious ways and we ignore him. maybe he brought you to me.
and we are to have compassion, and accept people, regardless of their sins.
Can you give some verse that back up that statement specifically?
I can find way more verses that spell out just the opposite.
We can forgive people, but we do not have to accept them. We only have to accept Jesus.
Loving someone does not include encouragement to sin.
it's not that we are to encourage sin. we're not. we're supposed to have nothing to do with it entirely. the sins of another is none of our business; it's between them and god. jesus could say "go they way and sin no more" for the same reason he could say "your sins are forgiven." he was in a special position that we as followers of christ are not in.
So if drugs were killing your brother, would you then love drugs as well?
Would you even love the fact that he was doing them?
Or just forgive him, and ask God to show him the way.
perhaps this is the problem. a lot of christians seem to see homosexuality as self-destructive. and they get the self-destructive idea from the idea that it's a sin, and all sins are self-destructive.
but is that ham and cheese from subway self-destructive?
if my brother was homosexual, and part of an underground subculture like in the 80's, one filled with lots of promiscuous and unprotected sex and drug use, yes i would say something. but if he was gay and in a healthy and monogamous relationship, i wouldn't say anything. interchange "homosexual" with "heterosexual" and the point is the same. because it's about the behavior that actually IS self destructive.
it's the difference between really caring about a person, and loving them for who they are, and telling them they're going to hell for the way god made them. we make distinctions between loving someone and encouraging their sin -- but they do not see it that way. all they see is us condemning them for something they cannot change about themselves.
if their sin is causing real, earthly problems like emotional issues, drug abuse, physical harm, risk to exposure of infectious disease, alcoholism -- yes, say something. help them. but if it's just where they're going when they die, that's between them and god. we do not control whether or not they are forgiven, and it's not our job to go around telling them that god does not approve.
On the other hand it is not the best idea in the world to create a society that allows you whatever you want.
which is why we have real, secular standards that dictate how we make laws. the one i gave you, that your rights extend exatly as far as the next person, is basic driving philosophy of modern law.
sorry, i wasn't clear. sex within marriage.
Oh, then I wake up very morning wanting to be blessed with a woman
no hun that's just morning wood. it's caused by circulation differences during sleep.
Doesn't she give up that right once she willingly has sex with a male?
no. pregnancy is not always intentional, either. sometimes birth control doesn't work, sometimes condoms break. welcome to the real world.
I am pro choice, choose not to have sex unless you expect to have a kid.
that's hardly realistic. recently married couples can do it all they want no matter how you look at it, but most want to hold off having a baby until they are financially secure enough to support one. are you saying "never have sex except to make babies?"


This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by riVeRraT, posted 02-04-2006 12:20 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by riVeRraT, posted 02-07-2006 8:23 AM arachnophilia has not replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1343 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 27 of 29 (284037)
02-04-2006 9:09 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by riVeRraT
02-04-2006 12:25 AM


Sexualy immorality is the one sin that Jesus says to run from.
1 Corinthians 6:18
Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a man commits are outside his body, but he who sins sexually sins against his own body.
1 Corinthians 10:8
We should not commit sexual immorality, as some of them did”and in one day twenty-three thousand of them died.
that's paul, not jesus. paul also says that the purpose of marriage is provide an "out" for screwing, so we don't go to hell. i would not call paul's attitudes to sexuality or marriage healthy.
i don't think it matters WHERE the sin occurs, or WHO you sin against. god forgives sin. period.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by riVeRraT, posted 02-04-2006 12:25 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by riVeRraT, posted 02-07-2006 8:40 AM arachnophilia has not replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 28 of 29 (284546)
02-07-2006 8:23 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by arachnophilia
02-04-2006 9:06 PM


Re: christianity and homosexuality
which is it? do we have to follow the law, or not? because it's really one or the other.
Hebrews 10:16
"This is the covenant I will make with them after that time, says the Lord. I will put my laws in their hearts, and I will write them on their minds."
and the first half of that statement was that jesus did not come to change the law. according to jesus, we are still held to it.
Jesus changed the law, by doing that he fulfilled it. It was propheiesed that those changes would take place.
quote:
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was upon him,
and by his wounds we are healed.
Know what book that is from? Sounds like a NT verse. But it is Isaiah 53.
All that he changed was a fulfillment of the law, so yea, he came not to change the law, but to fulfill it.
We don't have to not eat pork anymore, as long as our heart is clean, and it doesn’t make your brother sin.
according to the bible, woman is a derivative of man. god makes woman because she is like man, to provide company for man. marriage is defined when there are ONLY two people on the planet -- one male and one female.
Jesus later defines it again, I think I gave that verse in the other thread. One man, and one woman.
why are christians campaigning for laws against anything,
Because we are to go and make disciples of the world. People can not become disciples if they are allowed to sin. Sin keeps you from the One who loves you. Bible says have nothing to do with sexual immorality, and to run from it.
How can we run from it if it becomes law in our own backyard?
and why give up on divorce?
Christians have not given up on it. There are many help centers out there that deal with it. There are many Christian consolers who deal with nothing but that.
But by and large, it is all a failure, because we can divorce for just about anything, and we do. The system has made a mockery of the institution of marriage, and now gay people want to be part of it.
I think every single person on this planet has been made my a sperm, and an egg, and those children wish to be raised by their natural parents, provided they are being raised in a loving manor. It seems we have no respect for that process, the very one that brought us into existence, the gift of life from God.
or the national symbol?
I am not worshiping the national symbol, it's not an idol.
do you think jesus means to cause fights and families to fall apart?
No, but that he knew it would happen is a testimony to his existence.
a difference in faith between abraham's two sons is still tearing apart the middle east today.
Yes, given the nature of man, he would fight over anything, anyway. So I will not blame God or religion over that. They want to label it, but I am sure if they read their books, they could find many more reasons not to fight, over ones to fight. Hypocrites.
god works in mysterious ways. i personally think god tries to reach in obvious ways and we ignore him. maybe he brought you to me.
I agree completely.
and you to me.
That is a good seg-way into second gear. I want to start talking about free will, and God's will, and get away from the gay issue.
The words have been spoken about it, they are out there. It's ok that we don't agree on things. Sometimes words take a while to have an affect, nothing happens overnight.
and all sins are self-destructive.
I don't know if I would describe sin as self-destructive. I am not even sure if there is one way of expressing what sin does to a person.
But it isn't good for you usually. It is generally considered a bad thing.
but I see it as a necessary thing, as it serves a purpose. I think it is part of the will of the Father, to show us the way, and bring us to Him. Still doesn't mean we should make it a law.
Tell you the truth, I almost feel like religiously, I should allow it, and secularly I shouldn't.
but is that ham and cheese from subway self-destructive?
That is not a sin, anymore.
it's the difference between really caring about a person, and loving them for who they are, and telling them they're going to hell for the way god made them.
Yes, I understand that.
all they see is us condemning them for something they cannot change about themselves.
Many alcoholics feel the same way.
we do not control whether or not they are forgiven
Correct.
and it's not our job to go around telling them that god does not approve.
The bible does that, not us.
no hun that's just morning wood. it's caused by circulation differences during sleep.
Natures viagra
no. pregnancy is not always intentional, either. sometimes birth control doesn't work, sometimes condoms break. welcome to the real world.
The real world is in taking the risk, and relying on devices to keep you safe, or is it just better to not have sex, until your ready.
With all the disease, complications, and illegitimate children in the world, I would say the statistics do not lie this time. It is better to wait. I wish I would have, now that I know.
are you saying "never have sex except to make babies?"
No matter what, sex can lead to a baby being born, unless you can't conceive, or you have altered your body. so there is truth in that statement.
Post modern reasoning will teach you different, and tell you its a right of your to have sex, but that is only a partial truth.
Post modern reasoning can sometimes never reason away nature, into a false sense of what your rights are, yet it keeps trying too.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by arachnophilia, posted 02-04-2006 9:06 PM arachnophilia has not replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 29 of 29 (284551)
02-07-2006 8:40 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by arachnophilia
02-04-2006 9:09 PM


i don't think it matters WHERE the sin occurs, or WHO you sin against. god forgives sin. period.
You are forgiven if, you forgive, if you accept Jesus, amd if you repent of your sins.
I do not feel like gay people are sinning against me, so I do not have to forgive them.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by arachnophilia, posted 02-04-2006 9:09 PM arachnophilia has not replied

  
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