The C.C.O.I. (Christian Cult Of Ignorance) and Willful Ignorance

Belief in whatever the club considers essential and in many cases what a chapter of the club considers essential.

I know you like to use the word club in a pejorative manner that doesn't actually lend credence to your argument.I'm simply agreeing with Paul that without the resurrection then as Christ followers we are misguided and it is all a wast of time.That does not mean that when Jesus taught that we are to love our enemies etc that it isn't a good idea. It simply means that there is less reason to consider it valid because Jesus said it then when someone else like Gandhi says it.

So back to the "What's in it for me!" Christianity? And again, why would that matter?

You are putting your own spin on what I said. I was simply pointing out again that if Jesus wasn't resurrected then there is no good reason to follow what it was He said, just because He said it. That doesn't mean that what He said was wrong but it does mean that you are putting a lot of faith in someone who was delusional. In many ways it doesn't. IMHO God is far more concerned about whether our hearts love unselfishly or not but that isn't the point. I agree that it is a good thing to follow the idea that we should love God and neighbour. However if we believe that to be the case but reject the physical resurrection, then it again is Christian philosophy it is not Christianity the religion.Even at that though, those beliefs aren't at all confined to Christianity. The Rotary Club believes in those thing as well. Wouldn't it be better to go to Rotary rather than church. It is far more cost effective....no clergy, no buildings etc. From the perspective that you seem to espouse the church is just another social club. That doesn't mean that it is a bad thing.

GDR, you have to understand the bylaws of jars particular club (or Chapter) of Christianity.

They believe that even if Jesus never existed and the stories were simply tales passed down among humans, the message was still valid. We are charged to try to do our best for others. Even if GOD never existed, the spirit behind this club lives on in the members. Thus, jars club is Christian Philosophy. Which isnt a bad thing, necessarily...sometimes I think jar is the Apostle to the Atheists.

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They see GOD as unknowable.

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The core belief is the application of logic, reason, and reality to test everything ever written or said and weigh it against the charge that the club is under. They claim to be cradle Creedal Christians.

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Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

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Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo

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One of the major purposes of debate is to help you hone your arguments. Yours are pretty bad. They can use all the honing they can get.~Ringo

I understand that completely Phat. However, I'm only pointing out that view is a philosophy and not a religion, and that without Jesus and the resurrection there is nothing other than personal philosophical beliefs that make Christian philosophy and more valid than any other philosophy, and for the reasons that I stated even less so.

Is that how you see the message of Club: Paul?I would prefer to think of it as "What's in it for us?"GDR seems to think that without Jesus the resurrected One, it is all a waste of time(as a religion). I would agree, but understand that your particular club would thrive even if GOD never existed.May as well try and do the best we can in the life that we have.Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Is there ever a good reason for adults to follow what someone says just because the person said it?Even in the military a soldier can be tried and convicted for "simply following orders".What in particular am I placing faith in?If you mean an afterlife then yes, I believe that totally on faith.But if you mean Jesus teachings, heal the sick, comfort the sorrowful, clothe the naked, teach the children, feed the hungry, protect the weak, then it is not a matter of faith but rather a reasoned conclusion. Again, why is it not Christianity the religion? Why is saying it does not matter whether or not there was a physical resurrection rejecting the resurrection? As do almost all other religions. Do you thing God would be upset if someone chose Buddhism or Taoism or Confucianism or Islam or Judaism or Satanism as their path?But I was raised in a Christian environment, educated in Christian schools and so follow Christianity.AbE:You also continue to differentiate between religion and philosophy as though religions were somehow different than a philosophy.Yet you have also recognized that there are religions that are pretty much just philosophy.Edited by jar, : see Abe

I think what GDR means is that unbelief in the resurrection strips the power from the resurrection as a belief.Some "Clubs" focus on the death,burial, and resurrection as crucial for the belief to have any meaning.You, OTOH, have focused on Jesus life rather than His atoning death.

Again, that is the "What's in it for me" Christianity. When you introduce Jesus' death as a sacrifice, Jesus paying some of your bills, I see Jesus diminished, reduced in nature and character. I see it as just a cop out.But we have been down that path many times.Tell me, why would Jesus death and resurrection make anything Jesus is alleged to have said have any worth?

Remember when you were in science class and were on a nature outing? The wonder that was in your eyes as you saw little wooly caterpillars and other bugs up close? The wonder which you loved! The questions which you had.GODs creation is a magnificent testimony.Now lets take Jesus. For the sake of argument, I'll go with your idea that while on earth Jesus was just human, as the roly polys were just bugs. Now...in context, you grew up infused with a sobering charge towards personal responsibility. It is in your nature. This is why, I think, you ask why it even matters if Jesus existed apart from a character in a story and why it is important.I present you a living character. A man alive today. One whom you can get to know better. One whom has much more discipline, character, and a sense of personal responsibility than 95% of the Christians.Get to know this man. Are you too proud to accept His sacrifice? Would you be the type of character who would insist on paying your own bill at the restaurant even if I offered to pay it?Would my character be in any way diminished if I helped you?

Evidence Phat, and remember I have actually read the Bible.Where is the evidence of a man alive today? What is the process to get to know this man? How do you determine that you actually know this man? What does pride have to do with anything? And yes, in most cases I would insist on paying my own bill in a restaurant.

It would depend on the credibility of that someone. That's great, but there are millions of people who believe those things as well that don't call themselves Christian. I have already answered this several times but I'll try again.Case 1. Jesus was Jesus resurrected. If God resurrected Jesus the we can safely assume that God has validated Jesus' life and teachings. This gives Jesus ultimate credibility.Case 2. Jesus died and there is no physical resurrection. Jesus has no more credibility than any other philosopher, prophet or theologian. I also go further and say He has less due to the delusional claims He made about Himself.I have shown you that the early Christians believed that Jesus was physically resurrected and have quoted Paul who says that if it isn't true then people like myself are to be pitied.All of Christianity hangs on the physical resurrection of Jesus. Yes, it is entirely possible that one can adhere to the all encompassing command to love our neighbour but anyone Christian or not can do that. Ultimately what God wants IMHO is to live by the verse that I use in my signature. How we come to that is our choice. However, if Jesus was physically resurrected then God has validated Jesus' life and teaching. Jesus claimed that He was initiating the Kingdom. This Kingdom was to be made up of those who followed Him and His message of what God was doing and will do for the world and what part we are to play in it that ongoing narrative. God through Jesus is calling on us to follow Jesus, who embodied God's Word and wisdom to bring truth, love, forgiveness, mercy, justice etc. to the world.Once again though, I am not saying that those qualities cannot be present in non-Christians. Exactly. It is a cultural thing with you. You believe that we should be good. That is different than believing that God specifically involved Himself in the world in the life and resurrection of Jesus. Yes. They are two different things. That can be true as well. With my minimal understanding of Buddhism I think that is a case where the two coincide but then that is what Buddhism teaches. The Abrahamic religions do not do that. They talk about a God who has specifically intervened in human history.Here is the definition of philosophy.

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the study of the fundamental nature of knowledge, reality, and existence, especially when considered as an academic discipline.

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Philosophy has nothing to do with any deity. You appear to hold the view that there is a god and that he wants us to be good. You grew up in a Christian culture and so it is from that that you have taken on what it means to be good. You believe in Christian philosophy without believing in the Christian religion.Once again, this is not a heaven or hell thing, it is simply a matter of defining our terms and defining what it means to be a Christian.

Again, you express an opinion that is not based on the facts or reality.I not only believe in the Christian Religion but am a Christian. You might believe that is not true but you would simply be wrong. How does a physical resurrection validate anything Jesus said? Or is that just another belief? Paul was often an absolute ass as well as a fanatic. Yup, the Gospel and message. No resurrection needed. The charge is valid regardless of the source or authority. An a true Scotsman ...

Which means the content of the charge is valid. Not the source. Which means it is a philosophy.I told everyone and shall say it again: You are the Apostle to the Atheists.If the Source is not important, and if GOD is the source, the charge is a human construct meant for human ears.Not that its a bad thing. You may argue that we cannot test for evidence and, therefore, all "religions" are in the same boat.