Free will: an illusion

Don't be silly. Given the affirmative answer then even attempting to step outside of the question is a pre-determined action over which i have no control.And I really have no issue with the sub conclusions if they follow in a logical path. I am not concerning myself with God's motivations. I can't know them anyway so why bother/ beside which the thoughts and questions would not trully be my own anyway.

Isn't that a bit like being "quite" pregnant?
he either knows everything, past future, present or he doesn't. Sounds like you and catholic Scientist think the same way. Me too to some degree. The point is though that thepremises for this thread are to ask the question based on the definition that Omniscience mean ABSOLUTE omniscience. No limits. He knows the future and everything in it.
I'm not claiming that is the way it is in reality.
I am just exploring the ramifications if it were true. Nice
He uses his omnipotence to remove his own omniscience.
Either way this God no longer fits the premise for this thread so let's forget about him.
The only God i am interested in is truly and 100% omniscient.

I've never bought this. Let's say I know everything. So you say the future is pre-determined. Fine. But by whom or by what? Does my ability to know the future imply a fully deterministic universe where there is no free-will? Or does it imply that there is a creator God who pre-determined everything? Something has to do the pre-determining... Personally I do not see that this omniscience does necessarily remove free will, but then I have a much more relaxed view of time given my profession

ROFLMAO You crack me up.
God Forces his prophecies to come true.
I love it.

Maybe the problem lies in the understanding of the word foreknowing. If one takes the view that choices haven't been made yet by us but God can see into the future and thus foreknow then you could well have a point. But is that the only way to picture it?God is eternal - and that (possibly means) that there is no past, present and future for him. Time wouldn't elapse for him as it does for us.God would look at every moment of our lives as still frames on a piece of film. He knows what our choice is not because he is looking into the future but because he is looking at the present. Him looking at the present doesn't mean we weren't the ones exposing each frame on the film. We exposed, are exposing, will expose each frame and are free to do so. God, in eternity simply observes each frame that we have already exposed.All our decisions are already made in eternity. We just haven't made them yet in time. But they are our decisions whenever it is they get made. It doesn't matter which decisions we do make. That will just affect a film in the making (in time) which is already made (in eternity)A time vs eternity issue. Not lack of free willEdited by iano, : No reason given.Edited by iano, : insert (possibly means)

No it doesn't. You are misunderstanding my point.
I'm not saying that omniscience causes the loss of free will.What I am saying is that it is not possible to be omniscient (ie. know the future) unless the future is already in a state of predeterminism. You can't infallibly know it to be true if it ain't true right?That means that the possible existance of Omniscience is a symptom, not a cause.

It works though, yeah?Why is it so humorous?

Good you finally understand what I have been saying.
OK so what other way is there to look at it? Sounds exactly like what cavediver stated earlier.
All 4 dimensional space already exists and can be viewed from God's unique perspective of being "outside" it all. Except that in this scenario, from outside of time, all the frames would already exist. They would be stationary. From outside of time, could any change within time even be meaningfull or possible. Therefore we cannot choose to make any decision other than the one that is written in eternity. This is the most absolute definition of determinism that I have ever seen. So our choices are fixed. The film has been made and viewed many times (by anyone outside of time such as God and maybe his angels)I don't see one single shred of free will in this scenario. It is in fact precisely the scenario that I have been putting forward throughout this entire thread.We are characters in a book that has already been written. A movie that is already made. We can't change one single thing.

Ok, yes I can agree with this. This is the picture we get from General Relativity and precisely why God HAS to know the future/be outisde of time, becasue time and the future are both just elements of the created universe. If God is not omniscient, then He's not quite as up there as Einstein AbsolutelyHowever, it is possible we live in a many-world branching type of existence, in which case God's omniscience elevates to a differnt order of magnitude! I have often wondered whether conciousness and free-will actually derive from a smearing over several finely related existences, with each individual existence being purely deterministic.

Pretty much my view of things when I'm in a "free-will exists" type of mood Nice bit of 4d thinking there... like it

so... god isn't "all Knowing"? wow Eternity.. the motion picture... they made a film of the book eh? and God can see them? or is aware of them? but if the outcome is known before 'we' make these decisions... what hope have we of influencing them?

I liked Iano's picture here, and often think like this. My point in defense of free-will in this scenario is why cannot we be the joint-authors of the book? My future choices are indeed set. But they are set by me. My future self exists just as much as I today exist and as much as I my past self exists.

I don't see the necessity for determinism. You are forcing the two concepts time/eternity into one.You are failing to keep separate the time and eternal dimensions in your post. You are a character in a book that is being written by you (via your choices) in time. The book is already written in eternity. You are free to write the book any way you like but whichever way you do that is the book that God is viewing. No matter which way you WILL chose to write it, that is the book he IS viewingHis being able to view the whole completed book (perpetual present in eternity) doesn't mean you cannot write it anyway you like (future in time)Edited by iano, : No reason given.

See message 298. Time for the fat lady to sing-a-ling

Sure it works.It just conjours up all kinds of funny images to me.God: "And I say unto thee, Bob, that on the morrow ye shall certainly jump into the lake over there."
Bob; "Uhh.. Don't think so God. I'm visiting my in-laws in Kansas city. The wife and I are leaving tonight"
God: "We'll see." grins in a very un-godlike way.next day. Bob is mowing his Mother-in-law's back yard when suddenly a chuffing great lake appears in front of him and the deck chair in which his wife had been sitting is now quickly sinking in the water.
Bob immediately jumps in to save his wife.God: (from behind a passing cloud) "Gotcha!!!"
Bob: "Damn it God. That's cheating."