What do believers believe heaven or hell are like?

I, personally, would MUCH rather live in modern day Sweden or Finland (which can both be considered "without god") than the Israel (notably WITH god) mentioned in the bible.How about you? What does that say about being with and without god?

Amazing. Human sacrifice was forbidden in the Hebrew bible. Such never was done in Judea. Secondly, to sacrifice one's self there has to be a choice factor available. In the first century in Judea, a Jew before a Roman trial would have no choices - he would have been executed for not worshipping Jupiter and the Roman divine emperor, as were over 1 million other Jews. Thirdly, the law says:"THE SON SHALL NOT PAY FOR THE FATHER NOR THE MOTHER FOR THE DAUGHTER - ONLY THE SOUL THAT SINS [COMMITS A CRIME] IT SHALL PAY."How could such a bizarre story take hold!?

I suppose that you have some actual evidence to support that assertion?

Absolutely. There was the heresy decree of Caligula resurrected by Nero upon Judea. It decreed Jupiter's statue be placed in the Temple and sacrifices be made daily to the Roman emperor; the Hebrew religion was forbidden. The Jews rejected this and became the greatest defenders of monotheism, sacrificing over a million lives, their nation and homeland. Had it not been for those brave Jews, all of Europe would still be worshipping Jupiter today. It is why I wonder what Jesus could have said and saved himself in a Roman trial.

I suppose you have some actual evidence or is this just more of your unsupported assertions?

I do, but this is not my opinion - it is factual history seen in historical archives. Which part are you referring to?

Your evidence that over 1 million other Jews were killed for not worshiping Jupiter in the first century Judea.Actual court records would be acceptable.

The number killed was 1.1 Million within 5 months, as per the Flavius Josephus documents, which witnessed this war. Its not even mentioned in the NT - so much for Gospel truth and sacrifice!Edited by IamJoseph, : No reason given.

I asked for court records. I suppose you have some actual evidence?Maybe you have the numbers from the census so we have a clue how many folk were even there?Are you talking about the Jewish War?That had nothing to do with your assertion of people killed for not worshiping Jupiter, it was a punishment of a rebellion.So once again, do you have any support for your assertion?

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I asked for court records. I suppose you have some actual evidence?
Maybe you have the numbers from the census so we have a clue how many folk were even there?

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Yes, these numbers are in the book of exodus, a very common and known chapter.

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Are you talking about the Jewish War?

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That had nothing to do with your assertion of people killed for not worshiping Jupiter, it was a punishment of a rebellion.

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You've been reading European propaganda. Who else would call an existential war by such a term! Today, it is even claimed the holocaust of the 1940's was the Jews' fault! The Romans ruled Judea for more than 100 years before this war; they paid a higher tax rate than any other people in the empire. The war of 70 CE was a result of Nero's decree of heresy, which demanded the statue of Jupiter be housed in the temple and sacrifices be made daily: such a reason cannot possibly be called a rebellion! The Jews were the only monotheists in the world at this time and challenged Rome alone - all other nations seccumbed to Rome's depravity, including all of Europe and the Pre-Islamic peoples. The Jews of Judea solely rejected depraved Rome's divine kings and stood up to the last man, woman and child, in the temple war, then in the Masada war. Calling this a rebellion is obscene; it is the singular greatest defense of a belief in all recorded history. Rome lost!

All I can say is that I prefer a democracy to a Theocracy any day of the week. I guess that what I am asking you in this topic is this:When you die, do you turn to dust? Should the focus be on what we do now...while we are alive?I know that I don't spend a lot of time worrying about what I might be doing in an unknown afterlife. I would prefer that God exists,however, if only because --like Peggy Lee says---Is That All There Is?Edited by Phat, : title

Democrasy is a theologically introduced premise. It's correct form comes not from the Greeks but [surprise, surprise!] from the Hebrew bible.Consider that a democrasy is not 'LET THE MAJORITY DECIDE"; this would make Hitler, Sadaam Hussein and Ahmenadajab the most democratically elected figures in the modern world.Democrasy, in its correct form, was introduced in the Hebrew bible, thusly, well before the word democrasy was coined:'DO NOT FOLLOW A CORRUPTED MAJORITY'This says before you let the people decide, make sure they are not enforced, induced, blackmailed or threatened [corrupted]. Thereafter, and only thereafter, that same law says let the majority decide; there is no other reading of that law; there is no democrasy without that injunction being precedent and transcendent. Greece did not have this injunction; nor was Greece ever democratic at any time in its history; only a few Senators were allowed to vote, no women, and only those married and born as a Greek. A small select group controlled all.Ultimately, its not whether a theocrasy or secular government is in charge. Its the merit of the laws they both and each of them uphold which guarantees the peoples' lives that count.

Well if say an American stranger comes to my village and tries to beat up a neighbor i dont lke cause he has a newer car, or a better wife or whatever, that American would see the whole village descend upon him with a fury you have yet to see. Only we have the right to beat up one of our own no matter how much we hate him.But if any stranger even an American comes to any Slovenian village with good intentions all you have to do is ask and you shall receive, in some cases even asking a person to borrow his car so you can screw his wife in private would not be too much. According to the writings of Gajus Julius Cezar, during his time if a Slovan did not offer every hospitality to a stranger passing the village the village would kill that Slovan.We are a verry complex people of the extremes, if you drink every day you are a drunk but if you cant hold your ale your soft, if you dont drink there is something wrong with you,if you dont get layed by the time you are 20 there is something wrong with you but if you get layed too often your a whormonger, we rather pore our wine down the hill then sell it to cheap (happens allot), and a true vineyard owner does not sell his wine but drinks it with his friends. We send our kids to curch and to Sunday school, but we mostly dont attend curch except on the mayor holidays. Whenever you come to visit you HAVE TO eat something, but if you come during the time we eat we are pissed lol. The culture though is chanegeing especially in the city areas its becoming more of a standard European culture. But back in the day especially before my time it was more of an Astrix and Obelix kind of culture. The problem with us and god would be that well god would be in charge and if we wouldnt like what he was dooing we would lock him up in his office till he changes his mind, or we would have negotiations about how to run things on the shore of the lake of fire with only alcohol to drink, but on the other hand we dont want much we want food on the table, drinks in our belly and cigarette smoke in our lungs. It has to do with our history firstli we where raped by this religion first with the point of the sword, then with the indoctrination of the son of one of our ancient leaders, then we had to pay taxes to the curch 1/10 of everything, then douring the socialist revolution the state took alot of the churches property that was immorally gain anyway and now the fucks up top are giving it back. Even though we still have allot of devout people even they look with frowns when a priest comes to his parish with a new car every few years. Well we Slovenians where burning down castles killing counts and lords in peasant rebellions before America was even founded , except in the new civilized times we dont kill the tycoons that run large companies we make them shit their pants for long enough for them to give us what we want. But even this is changing i think mostly because of immigration where immigrants are happy to work for minimum wages and a 45 minute brake and our people cant get them to rise up with them its a bit harder if everyone is not working together. And i dont know whats wrong with these immigrants because scandals come out every so often where some Bosnians havent been payed for up to 6 months and are still working and not holding their boss over the roofs ledge by his feet.back on topicIf heaven exists and is a place where everyone is happy, it has to be something close to the haven shown in the Series of Supernatural where everyone has his own piece of heaven where stuff that he likes are always happening. Basically everyone gets his own version of heaven.

Yep. What else does a rational person focus on? Do you reflect on things you did before you were born? Oh, that's right, you didn't exist then. Yea, I get that. A god that cares about Phat makes Phat warm and fuzzy. It's too bad that it's all in your head, though.

Exodus has absolutely nothing to do with the topic, the population of Judea in the 1st Century, the number of Jews executed because they refused to worship Jupiter or the number of people killed during the Jewish Wars.So once again, do you have any support for your assertion or is this going to be just more of your bullshit slinging, goal post changing, tap dancing evasion, pea palming carny tricks?