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Author Topic:   Could the universe have been created for no reason?
fallacycop
Member (Idle past 5521 days)
Posts: 692
From: Fortaleza-CE Brazil
Joined: 02-18-2006


Message 91 of 103 (457397)
02-23-2008 6:26 AM
Reply to: Message 51 by ChristianJuggalo
02-21-2008 2:26 PM


why I never get a straight forward answer when I ask someone who doesn't believe in a creator, how has the universe always been here? They always say, "it just has"
Thats because this isn't a fair question, and you shouldn't be asking it to begin with. How would you answer the question
quote:
how has god always been here?
Do you have a better answer then
quote:
it just has
?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by ChristianJuggalo, posted 02-21-2008 2:26 PM ChristianJuggalo has not replied

  
fallacycop
Member (Idle past 5521 days)
Posts: 692
From: Fortaleza-CE Brazil
Joined: 02-18-2006


Message 92 of 103 (457398)
02-23-2008 6:40 AM
Reply to: Message 65 by ChristianJuggalo
02-21-2008 3:18 PM


Again, any got a link to information on the Big Bang?
google it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by ChristianJuggalo, posted 02-21-2008 3:18 PM ChristianJuggalo has not replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 93 of 103 (457419)
02-23-2008 12:54 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by ChristianJuggalo
02-23-2008 3:03 AM


I just wanted to get the atheists views of it.
That's fine. It's just that when Christians come onto this site asking those questions, 9 times out of 10 they are thinking that they've managed to disprove atheism and modern cosmology once and for all (and they rarely even care about what atheists views really are -- in fact, they are convinced that they already know all there is to know about atheists). So when someone comes around asking these very same questions, we kind of just assume she is one of those types.
But if you are really curious about what atheists think, you're going to have to ask each and every atheist -- an atheist is just someone who believes that no gods exist. Other than that, there is no standard dogma, and a lot of people have different views on different things. This is especially true about cosmology and Big Bang, which your typical atheist doesn't understand any better than your typical Christian.
So, for this particular atheist's views:
I don't know how the universe began.
I don't even think the question makes sense -- I don't believe anyone has really constructed the concepts necessary to even discuss this rationally.
I just say that the universe simply exists, mostly because I can't conceive of any other alternative.

If I had a million dollars, I'd buy you a monkey.
Haven't you always wanted a monkey?
-- The Barenaked Ladies

This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by ChristianJuggalo, posted 02-23-2008 3:03 AM ChristianJuggalo has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by Taz, posted 02-23-2008 1:52 PM Chiroptera has replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3292 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 94 of 103 (457436)
02-23-2008 1:52 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by Chiroptera
02-23-2008 12:54 PM


Chiroptera writes:
an atheist is just someone who believes that no gods exist.
I'd dispute you with this point. An atheist is someone who does not believe in god(s). It is the absence of belief that is the central core of atheism.
In fact, I would even dispute the need for the word "atheist". Do we have a word to describe those who are not lawyers? Do we have a word to describe those who are not philosophers? Do we have a word to describe those who do not believe in UFOs as alien spacecrafts? Why do we have a word to describe those who do not believe in god(s).
Atheists do not say that there is/are no god/gods. It's just that we lack the belief or the need in it/them.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by Chiroptera, posted 02-23-2008 12:54 PM Chiroptera has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by Michael, posted 02-23-2008 2:23 PM Taz has not replied
 Message 98 by Chiroptera, posted 02-23-2008 3:00 PM Taz has replied

  
Michael
Member (Idle past 4638 days)
Posts: 199
From: USA
Joined: 05-14-2005


Message 95 of 103 (457445)
02-23-2008 2:23 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by Taz
02-23-2008 1:52 PM


Taz writes:
In fact, I would even dispute the need for the word "atheist". Do we have a word to describe those who are not lawyers? Do we have a word to describe those who are not philosophers? Do we have a word to describe those who do not believe in UFOs as alien spacecrafts? Why do we have a word to describe those who do not believe in god(s).
If the majority of people in the world were lawyers we'd probably need a word for non-lawyers. If the majority of people in the world were philosophers we'd probably need a word for non-philosophers. If the majority of people in the world believed that UFOs were alien spacecraft we'd probably need a word for people less credulous. It seems that the majority of people in the world have a belief in an invisible friend/disciplinarian; I think we need a word for those of us who are skeptical. "Atheist" serves that purpose well.
Cheers.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by Taz, posted 02-23-2008 1:52 PM Taz has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by Chiroptera, posted 02-23-2008 2:25 PM Michael has replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 96 of 103 (457446)
02-23-2008 2:25 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by Michael
02-23-2008 2:23 PM


I think this is funny.
If the majority of people in the world were lawyers we'd probably need a word for non-lawyers.
We do have a word for non-lawyers, and, in fact, you (and I) just used it.

If I had a million dollars, I'd buy you a monkey.
Haven't you always wanted a monkey?
-- The Barenaked Ladies

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by Michael, posted 02-23-2008 2:23 PM Michael has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by Michael, posted 02-23-2008 2:51 PM Chiroptera has not replied

  
Michael
Member (Idle past 4638 days)
Posts: 199
From: USA
Joined: 05-14-2005


Message 97 of 103 (457450)
02-23-2008 2:51 PM
Reply to: Message 96 by Chiroptera
02-23-2008 2:25 PM


Re: I think this is funny.
Chiroptera writes:
We do have a word for non-lawyers, and, in fact, you (and I) just used it.
And look how closely that word resembles the word "atheist." I don't understand the objection by some atheists to the "A" word.
Cheers.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by Chiroptera, posted 02-23-2008 2:25 PM Chiroptera has not replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 98 of 103 (457452)
02-23-2008 3:00 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by Taz
02-23-2008 1:52 PM


I'd dispute you with this point.
Well, you can dispute all you want.
Basically, the meaning of a word is how people actually use it.
When I use the word, I mean someone who does not believe that a god exists. I could be wrong, but I think that is what CJ means when he is using the word. In fact, it is what the word means whenever it has been used by anyone with whom I have discussed atheism. So we all understand what the other is saying; we are communicating effectively. The word is doing exactly what it is supposed to do -- it is facilitating communication.

If I had a million dollars, I'd buy you a monkey.
Haven't you always wanted a monkey?
-- The Barenaked Ladies

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by Taz, posted 02-23-2008 1:52 PM Taz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by Taz, posted 02-23-2008 3:32 PM Chiroptera has not replied

  
ChristianJuggalo 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5852 days)
Posts: 56
From: United States
Joined: 02-21-2008


Message 99 of 103 (457458)
02-23-2008 3:23 PM
Reply to: Message 89 by fallacycop
02-23-2008 5:47 AM


Could you please stop spelling 'their is' and spell it correctly?
Sure, fallacycop. If it makes you feel better I will. But how could a word get to your nervs? A word is intangible, so exactly how could it get to your nervs? "There", is that better?

"For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved"- John 3:17
If God didn't create the universe, then how did it just get here?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by fallacycop, posted 02-23-2008 5:47 AM fallacycop has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by fallacycop, posted 02-23-2008 4:17 PM ChristianJuggalo has not replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3292 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 100 of 103 (457460)
02-23-2008 3:32 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by Chiroptera
02-23-2008 3:00 PM


Well, then I guess I beg to differ with merriam-webster.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by Chiroptera, posted 02-23-2008 3:00 PM Chiroptera has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 101 by ChristianJuggalo, posted 02-23-2008 3:36 PM Taz has not replied

  
ChristianJuggalo 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5852 days)
Posts: 56
From: United States
Joined: 02-21-2008


Message 101 of 103 (457461)
02-23-2008 3:36 PM
Reply to: Message 100 by Taz
02-23-2008 3:32 PM


Well, then I guess I beg to differ with merriam-webster.
Good for you Taz, you go and do that.

"For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved"- John 3:17
If God didn't create the universe, then how did it just get here?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by Taz, posted 02-23-2008 3:32 PM Taz has not replied

  
fallacycop
Member (Idle past 5521 days)
Posts: 692
From: Fortaleza-CE Brazil
Joined: 02-18-2006


Message 102 of 103 (457466)
02-23-2008 4:17 PM
Reply to: Message 99 by ChristianJuggalo
02-23-2008 3:23 PM


Much better, thank you

This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by ChristianJuggalo, posted 02-23-2008 3:23 PM ChristianJuggalo has not replied

  
Granny Magda
Member
Posts: 2462
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 103 of 103 (457513)
02-23-2008 9:06 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by ChristianJuggalo
02-23-2008 3:03 AM


Hi CJ,
If I might throw in my two cents woth;
if you don't believe that there is a God, then do you believe there doesn't need to be a reason for existence?
That is exactly what I believe. There may be a reason for existence for all I know. I just don't think that it is a given; we might well live in a universe entirely devoid of intrinsic meaning, indeed, it seems to me that we live in just such a meaningless universe.
It is important to note however, that I do not consider our lives to be meaningless. Without intelligent beings to marvel at it, the universe would be meaningless. It is our instinct to create meaning that makes existence meaningful. This is an active process; we must create meaning for ourselves, in the way we live our lives. No outside agency or deity is going to step in and give us purpose, whether we believe in one or not.
I don't feel discomfort. I believe God created the universe
Well I don't and I don't feel any discomfort either.
(Atheists) say they don't know why or how (and that's fine with me) they just say it has been here. Well, people ask me how can you believe in God and that he created everything without any proof. I would say, I just believe and that I have faith. To me they are pretty similar.
I disagree. You believe that God made the universe. Science doesn't say that you are wrong, it simply says "We do not currently know what, if anything, caused the universe to come into existence."
You are placing your faith in a particular explanation, namely God.
Science remains silent, until equipped with evidence upon which an explanation might be based. Even then, no explanation is ever treated as "gospel". Every scientific theory is subject to constant examination, pending better explanations. Good scientists do not have "faith" in their theories, in quite the way that you mean it. Rather, they have a tentative confidence that they have provided the best explanation of current observations.
Belief in the absence of evidence is not logical or sensible. It is merely wishful thinking. The most that can be said of God as the initiator of the Big Bang, is that we have "no need for that hypothesis".
I have not been around many atheists
Maybe you have and they're just not telling...
Seriously, as Chiroptera has noted, atheists come in all shades of opinion. Ask ten atheists a question and you'll probably get eleven different answers. It's good that you want to understand other people's opinions though. Hopefully, that's a big part of why we're all here.

Mutate and Survive

This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by ChristianJuggalo, posted 02-23-2008 3:03 AM ChristianJuggalo has not replied

  
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