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Author Topic:   Could the universe have been created for no reason?
Blue Jay
Member (Idle past 2698 days)
Posts: 2843
From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts
Joined: 02-04-2008


Message 61 of 103 (457136)
02-21-2008 3:03 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by ChristianJuggalo
02-21-2008 2:09 PM


Re: Well, science has evidence.
Granny Magda wrote this as a definition of "theory" in science:
Granny Magda writes:
In science, a theory is an explanatory framework, a model which is capable of being tested through empirical observation.
I would go further than this and say that anything called a "theory" in science already has been tested. Until it is tested, any idea is referred to as a hypothesis. This does not mean, however, that tests on each theory do not go on as Granny Magda suggests: in fact, every time we write a paper based on a given theory (evolution, for instance), we are providing one more test for that particular theory.
Note that the word "law" was more popular in classical physics, and is sometimes used by people to describe a theory with a mathematical formula attached. But, it is in no real way different from the word "theory." So, the "Law of Thermodynamics" is the scientific equal of the "Theory of Evolution," and so forth.
We live we die and we never have anything afterwords? To me that's just boring.
This is an interesting topic in itself. How much more boring is the life of a coral or a clam? They just sit there and open their mouth with the waves to filter bits of pseudo-food out of it, then spray gametes into the surf to get dispersed randomly into the ocean. They don't even move around! Your life is a non-stop action movie with top-of-the-line special effects compared to a coral's, even if you just sit in front of your computer all day and write messages on EvC Forum!
I think another confusion that you have is the contradictory nature of science and religion. I'm a Christian myself, and I believe very strongly in Christ's Atonement and a happy afterlife with my family and my God, but I still believe in purely materialistic evolution.
The reason I believe in evolution is because of the evidence that is provided. Evidence is what makes science, not complete and eternal truth. We may never get to the point at which our theories represent perfect and infallible knowledge, but we can reach the point beyond which coincidence is not a satisfactory explanation. Therefore, we are obligated to accept the interlocking evidence as meaningful, and to reject the idea that it all just happens to point in the same wrong direction.
If all the evidence we can find points away from what we think our religion is telling us, we must either believe that our religion is false or God is a deceiver (neither of which, I assume, is a tasteful explanation in your mind). But, evidence found in the natural world cannot lie to us the way our feelings and viewpoints can (believe me on this one: I used to be on Zoloft).
The evidence for evolution by natural selection is saturatingly abundant. A handful of details still defy our understanding yet, but this is be expected: I doubt we'll ever satisfactorily answer all the details.
I just don't believe that the universe could form all on it's own.
Modern physics is able to put forth a whole lot of good explanation for the processes and functions of the universe around us. The formation of the universe is the result of many factors interacting. Gravity, electromagnetic force, and the strong and weak nuclear forces are all essential for the structure of the universe.
Because we know the processes that formed the universe and make it function, we can use them to describe and explain the rest of what we see. We can't actually tell anybody "why" it works this way, nor can we actually say there isn't a deity who deemed it necessary that the universe function this way.
But, we can say with a certain measure of surety that it does function this way. And this is what we study as scientists. We don't have to first assume that God exists or that there is a purpose to it, because these considerations don't seem to effect how it works.
Another common problem with this line of logic is that people generally come to the conclusion that, if there is a purpose to the universe, it must have something to do with me. Why do all belief systems revolve around us? Why doesn't anybody worship praying mantises as the chosen creatures of God?
Instead, we automatically assume it has something to do with us. This presents a major bias in one's thought processes: even if there was a purpose, a reason, to the universe, why should it have to make sense to us? Should it not also make sense to the mantises, just to be fair?
Thus, we don't assume that there's a purpose for the things we study in science: we only assume that the things we study exist. Then, we try to figure out how they work. The why/ is open for speculation.

Signed,
Nobody Important (just Bluejay)

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ChristianJuggalo 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5852 days)
Posts: 56
From: United States
Joined: 02-21-2008


Message 62 of 103 (457137)
02-21-2008 3:05 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by Taz
02-21-2008 2:56 PM


there's no "story" of the BB.
Hey smart ass. I just wanted to know the basics so I can understand it a little better. Also I never said that I could learn it in a few paragraphs moron. I simply just want to know if anyone has a link to it.
I did learn algebra through years of studying and I never said I didn't.
Why did you think, that I thought I could learn it in a few paragraphs dipshit?
You need to read a little closer and stop trying to put words in people's mouths.

"For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved"- John 3:17
If God didn't create the universe, then how did it just get here?

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by Rahvin, posted 02-21-2008 3:25 PM ChristianJuggalo has not replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3292 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 63 of 103 (457138)
02-21-2008 3:09 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by ChristianJuggalo
02-21-2008 2:59 PM


Re: then what created god?......
ChristianJuggalo writes:
And why do atheists insist on making fun of us christians and using sarcasm against us?
Because it's the fun thing to do.
Think about it for a second. Technically, atheists are second class citizens in this country. Why? Because we could never be elected into an office of great sigificance.
Being made fun of on isolated occasions is a small price to pay.
Do you think you're better than us because you believe something different?
I can't speak for others, but yes I do believe that I'm better... morally at least.
I think it's stupid as shit to believe we are here just to live and die and rot in the ground in this chaotic world. Yeah, lets live this short life and never have conscience again after we die, woohoo!
Ok, smartass, you think it's better to believe in a god that watches you when you masturbate?
And I'm not a child.
That's funny. Christians usually refer to themselves as "children of god". In fact, last month, as a masochistic act I listened to a christian sermon on the radio while on my way back from a counter protest against a protest at a funeral by the westboro baptist church. Throughout the sermon, the guy kept referring to himself as a "child of god".
You might laugh at that and that's fine. But some people believe that no one created the universe. So, we both believe something has always been here.
Actually, that's not what I believe. I believe that I don't know, and I also believe that you also don't know either.

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ChristianJuggalo 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5852 days)
Posts: 56
From: United States
Joined: 02-21-2008


Message 64 of 103 (457139)
02-21-2008 3:17 PM


Taz, I am a child of God. But, age wise, no I'm not a child on Earth.
You said "Ok, smartass, you think it's better to believe in a god that watches you when you masturbate?"
That wan't even related to what I said. You were just trying to be funny you dumbass.
You said you are better than me "morally", HAHA! That actually got me my first laugh of the day. Thank you.
Also I don't care to be made fun of because, it is just someones opinion, I just want to know why. You say because it's the fun thing to do. Well, I guess the fun thing for me to do is laugh at your pathetic attempt to think you are better than all christians.

"For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved"- John 3:17
If God didn't create the universe, then how did it just get here?

Replies to this message:
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ChristianJuggalo 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5852 days)
Posts: 56
From: United States
Joined: 02-21-2008


Message 65 of 103 (457140)
02-21-2008 3:18 PM


Again, any got a link to information on the Big Bang?

"For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved"- John 3:17
If God didn't create the universe, then how did it just get here?

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by fallacycop, posted 02-23-2008 6:40 AM ChristianJuggalo has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 66 of 103 (457141)
02-21-2008 3:20 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by ChristianJuggalo
02-21-2008 2:51 PM


If anyone has a link to the story of the "Big Bang", I would like to know so I can understand it better.
Have you ever use wikipedia?
Check out their page on the Big Bang.
I just haven't read good enough evidence to show me that the "Big Bang" actually happened.
But that is not how you are presenting yourself. Instead of asking questions, you are making claims.
The reason you are getting ridicule and sarcasm is because you make outrageous claims like "The Big Bang violates the Law of Thermodynamics". If you would have asked if the BB violated the LoT, you would have received a lot less ridicule than claiming that it does.

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Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4032
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 9.2


Message 67 of 103 (457142)
02-21-2008 3:23 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by ChristianJuggalo
02-21-2008 2:44 PM


Re: Correction: that is our own lack of belief.
Actually you don't believe in a creator therefore it is a belief. Even if you say a "lack of belief" it is also saying that you do have a belief. How could you have a "lack of belief" if you don't think their is anything to believe in, in the first place? By that statement you are saying you believe something, and that is that you don't believe in a creator.
Now that is some mental acrobatics!
A lack of belief is like a shadow being the absence of light, or cold being the absence of heat. I simply don't believe in the supernatural, in exactly the same way that you do not believe in Santa Claus, or Thor, or Zeus, etc.
There is a subtle but significant difference between saying "I believe there is no god" and saying "I don't believe there is a god." The former asserts that god's nonexistence is true. The former asserts that there is no reason to assume the existence of god.
I don't claim the former because I can't know that there is no god. You can't prove a negative. In the same way I can't prove that there isn't an invisible fairy sitting on your shoulder. But I can say "I don't see any reason to believe that there is one, so there probably isn't."
Your position is projection: you are projecting your own position onto me, becasue you find a lack of belief to be inconceivable.

This message is a reply to:
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Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4032
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 9.2


Message 68 of 103 (457143)
02-21-2008 3:25 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by ChristianJuggalo
02-21-2008 3:05 PM


Re: there's no "story" of the BB.
I very strongly suggest that you stop the insults. Admin doesn't take kindly to those. If others choose to use them, they'll suffer his wrath - I find it best not to get myself suspended by doing the same.
Wouldn't you agree?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by ChristianJuggalo, posted 02-21-2008 3:05 PM ChristianJuggalo has not replied

  
ChristianJuggalo 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5852 days)
Posts: 56
From: United States
Joined: 02-21-2008


Message 69 of 103 (457147)
02-21-2008 3:31 PM


Alright. Sorry if I jumped to conclusions. I know I shouldn't have said certain things without researching them. I guess I will have to accept the fact that no atheist knows how or why the universe got here. I know their isn't an answer for everything.
I do believe God created the universe (that's just my belief don't get crazy atheists)
Also, I will do a little studying on the "Big Bang" and come to my conclusion. I will read it with an open mind.
I'm not saying it never happened.
Anyway, I'm about done here. You guys have fun debating. I don't have the information to debate. Oh well, can't win them all.
Also, thank you "Taz" for showing me how big of a smart ass you are.
Edited by ChristianJuggalo, : mispelled

"For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved"- John 3:17
If God didn't create the universe, then how did it just get here?

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by Rahvin, posted 02-21-2008 3:45 PM ChristianJuggalo has not replied
 Message 72 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-21-2008 3:45 PM ChristianJuggalo has not replied
 Message 73 by Taz, posted 02-21-2008 3:57 PM ChristianJuggalo has replied
 Message 75 by BMG, posted 02-21-2008 4:02 PM ChristianJuggalo has not replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5930
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


Message 70 of 103 (457151)
02-21-2008 3:44 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by ChristianJuggalo
02-21-2008 12:50 PM


Are we just here to live this short and sometimes chaotic and stressful life and then die and never live again on Earth or in the afterlife? That just doesn't seem very exciting to me. We live we die and we never have anything afterwords? To me that's just boring.
Yet another person claiming that nothing could possibly have any meaning without their god. If I may share what I had written years ago to another such statement, which is quoted in angle brackets at the beginning:
quote:
>>The point I was trying to make in my original email is that is if the Bible is NOT (accurate and literal) then I don't see what difference it makes (to me) once I'm dead how I lived life.<<
Completely and utterly and blatantly untrue. I just cannot comprehend how anybody could seriously think such a thing!
First, if there is an after-life but your biblical literalism simply got it wrong, then it would still be highly probable that how you lived your life would have a DIRECT effect on what will happen to you once you're dead. True, you'd be very surprised with it, once the Maya had worn off, but then I truly believe that if an after-life exists then a lot of people are going to be very surprised, especially evangelical Christians.
Second, even if there is no after-life, how you had lived your life would STILL matter, long after you're dead. Why are you thinking only of yourself? You are a FATHER, a parent! Even if there is no heaven nor hell nor next life for you to go to when you die, how you lived would still matter very much. How you raised your children. How you treated others. Whether you helped or hindered them. What you built; what kind of legacy you left behind. All that matters very much!
At my father's memorial service, I mentioned what we had learned of the ancient Germanic beliefs as brought out by the Hildebrandtslied [**] and I pointed out that our county was filled with his legacy (he was a master carpenter) and that his memory would live on through the family that he had raised and through their families and so on, for long after his death. It still matters how he had lived his life!
[** Footnote: The Hildebrandtslied (Song of Hildebrandt) is the oldest piece of Germanic literature known to us It tells the story of an aging warrior, Hildebrandt, about to do battle with a much younger warrior. As was customary, they told each other about themselves, the younger one first. As the younger warrior introduced himself, Hildebrandt realized that he was his own son. This created a dilemma for him, because a Germanic warrior gained immortality in one of two ways: through his reputation and the tales of valor that the other warriors would tell of him and through leaving behind sons to carry on his name. Whichever action he took next, he would lose immortality. We do not know what happened next, since we only have a fragment of the poem.]
But let's go back to the subject line of your email: "RE: If evolution is right... ". If evolution is right and our bodies are little more than a way for our genes to reproduce themselves, then it STILL matters VERY MUCH how we live our lives. Because if we do not produce offspring and provide for them in such a way as to enhance their survival and their ability to produce their own offspring, thus propogating our genes into the future, then we will have failed. That includes ensuring that society and community will be able to enhance their survival, thus benefitting the entire gene pool we are a part of. How we live our lives affects the propogation of our genes, so it still matters. In fact, it matters even more, because it directly affects ALL future generations. It cannot matter much more than that!
But let's return to your selfish perspective, your asking "but what's in it for ME?". Why bother to live a life worth living? Sounds so ridiculous, once you actually ask the question, doesn't it? And the answer sounds so obvious: because living such a life is worth it! How could anybody really think that it doesn't matter?
You're so worried about being bored, but you wouldn't be if you were to stop being so self-centered and started thinking about others instead of only about yourself.
ChristianJuggalo,Message 19 writes:
So atheists just want to live and die without the belief of living in peace and harmony? That's sad.
Atheists do believe in living in peace and harmony and we do seek that. Of course, it doesn't help that we are constantly villified by religous zealots who accuse us of believing the most ridiculous things, like you just did.
BTW, I have personally suffered outright and blatant religious discrimination to the extent of being summarily and wrongly expelled from a "public" organization, denied all due process that was guaranteed by that organization, and witnessed my plight being roundly mocked by the organization's other self-righteous members. In other situations, I have been threatened with physical violence by "good Christians" zealous to demonstrate the intensity of their "Christian love" for me, solely because my beliefs were different from theirs.
Yes, atheists do indeed want to live in peace and harmony. It's the religous zealots who don't want to.

{When you search for God, y}ou can't go to the people who believe already. They've made up their minds and want to convince you of their own personal heresy.
("The Jehovah Contract", AKA "Der Jehova-Vertrag", by Viktor Koman, 1984)
Humans wrote the Bible; God wrote the world.
(from filk song "Word of God" by Dr. Catherine Faber, No webpage found at provided URL: http://www.echoschildren.org/CDlyrics/WORDGOD.HTML)
Of course, if Dr. Mortimer's surmise should be correct and we are dealing with forces outside the ordinary laws of Nature, there is an end of our investigation. But we are bound to exhaust all other hypotheses before falling back upon this one.
(Sherlock Holmes in The Hound of the Baskervilles)
Gentry's case depends upon his halos remaining a mystery. Once a naturalistic explanation is discovered, his claim of a supernatural origin is washed up. So he will not give aid or support to suggestions that might resolve the mystery. Science works toward an increase in knowledge; creationism depends upon a lack of it. Science promotes the open-ended search; creationism supports giving up and looking no further. It is clear which method Gentry advocates.
("Gentry's Tiny Mystery -- Unsupported by Geology" by J. Richard Wakefield, Creation/Evolution Issue XXII, Winter 1987-1988, pp 31-32)

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Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4032
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 9.2


Message 71 of 103 (457152)
02-21-2008 3:45 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by ChristianJuggalo
02-21-2008 3:31 PM


Alright. Sorry if I jumped to conclusions. I know I shouldn't have said certain things without researching them. I guess I will have to accept the fact that no atheist knows how or why the universe got here. I know their isn't an answer for everything.
Good for you. I'm glad that you're starting to understand.
I do believe God created the universe (that's just my belief don't get crazy atheists)
And that's fine - by and large, we atheists don't get our panties in a wad unless someone insists we should teach Creationism or other non-science in a science classroom, or when someone incorrectly insists on telling us what our posistions are even after being corrected. And of course we get frustrated with beating our heads against a wall like anyone else - that's what's happening with Taz. He's had some recent arguments with some theists who are...less understanding? than you, and so he's a tad cranky Please forgive him.
Also, I will do a little studying on the "Big Bang" and come to my conclusion. I will read it with an open mind.
I'm not saying it never happened.
Good! If you return to argue against it, it's always good to actually understand what you're arguing against! Remember also that we actually have some resident scientists on this very board: cavediver, for instance, is a physicist and has actually taught Big Bang cosmology at the graduate level. You can always feel free to ask questions here. I've always found the site to be extremely informative.
Anyway, I'm about done here. You guys have fun debating. I'm done have the information to debate. Oh well, can't win them all.
I hope to see you back. Christians who are willing to do a little research regarding the opposition's position are few and far between.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by ChristianJuggalo, posted 02-21-2008 3:31 PM ChristianJuggalo has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 72 of 103 (457153)
02-21-2008 3:45 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by ChristianJuggalo
02-21-2008 3:31 PM


Anyway, I'm about done here. You guys have fun debating. I don't have the information to debate. Oh well, can't win them all.
You could stick around and read and then you would have the information to debate.
Also, thank you "Taz" for showing me how big of a smart ass you are.
Meh, don't blame him. He's a liberal and can't help it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by ChristianJuggalo, posted 02-21-2008 3:31 PM ChristianJuggalo has not replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3292 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 73 of 103 (457156)
02-21-2008 3:57 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by ChristianJuggalo
02-21-2008 3:31 PM


CJ writes:
I will read it with an open mind.
No, you won't.
I guess I will have to accept the fact that no atheist knows how or why the universe got here.
The question is do we even care why the universe got here?
Also, thank you "Taz" for showing me how big of a smart ass you are.
You're quite welcome.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by ChristianJuggalo, posted 02-21-2008 3:31 PM ChristianJuggalo has replied

Replies to this message:
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dwise1
Member
Posts: 5930
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


Message 74 of 103 (457157)
02-21-2008 4:00 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by ChristianJuggalo
02-21-2008 3:17 PM


You said you are better than me "morally", HAHA! That actually got me my first laugh of the day. Thank you.
Well let's see. We value seeking the truth and being truthful. And we consider lying and deliberate deception to be immoral. We also find hypocrisy to be repugnant.
Our observation of most creationists -- especially the zealots and the professionals -- is that they shun the truth and go to great lengths to avoid being truthful. All their claims of "scientific evidence" are lies which they continue to repeat even long after those lies have been been exposed to their face a thousand times. And they persist in using those lies to deliberately deceive others. And all the while they hypocritically claim to love the truth and to serve the "God of Truth" and they proclaim that they have the only claim on morality, even though their actions are profoundly immoral.
And after having done all those immoral things and much more and much worse, creationists have then tried to convert me to Christianity. Sorry, but I do not see how anyone with more than a single moral fiber in them could even begin to consider such a thing.

{When you search for God, y}ou can't go to the people who believe already. They've made up their minds and want to convince you of their own personal heresy.
("The Jehovah Contract", AKA "Der Jehova-Vertrag", by Viktor Koman, 1984)
Humans wrote the Bible; God wrote the world.
(from filk song "Word of God" by Dr. Catherine Faber, No webpage found at provided URL: http://www.echoschildren.org/CDlyrics/WORDGOD.HTML)
Of course, if Dr. Mortimer's surmise should be correct and we are dealing with forces outside the ordinary laws of Nature, there is an end of our investigation. But we are bound to exhaust all other hypotheses before falling back upon this one.
(Sherlock Holmes in The Hound of the Baskervilles)
Gentry's case depends upon his halos remaining a mystery. Once a naturalistic explanation is discovered, his claim of a supernatural origin is washed up. So he will not give aid or support to suggestions that might resolve the mystery. Science works toward an increase in knowledge; creationism depends upon a lack of it. Science promotes the open-ended search; creationism supports giving up and looking no further. It is clear which method Gentry advocates.
("Gentry's Tiny Mystery -- Unsupported by Geology" by J. Richard Wakefield, Creation/Evolution Issue XXII, Winter 1987-1988, pp 31-32)

This message is a reply to:
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BMG
Member (Idle past 209 days)
Posts: 357
From: Southwestern U.S.
Joined: 03-16-2006


Message 75 of 103 (457159)
02-21-2008 4:02 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by ChristianJuggalo
02-21-2008 3:31 PM


Anyway, I'm about done here. You guys have fun debating. I don't have the information to debate. Oh well, can't win them all.
Hi Juggalo.
Perhaps looking at debating as a "win or lose" situation isn't the best way of going about it. Often times, its possible to view debating as a social activity, one in which we are stumbling around together in this "chaotic" world, seeking understanding and a firm grasp of that which surrounds us.
From "Asking the Right Questions":
quote:
...what is important is the search for better conclusions. If you give signals to those trying to persuade you that you are their partner in a discovery process intended to enrich you both, they may see your critical questions as a tool that is indispensable to both of you.
We're in this together, my friend.

This message is a reply to:
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