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Author Topic:   Could the universe have been created for no reason?
ChristianJuggalo 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5872 days)
Posts: 56
From: United States
Joined: 02-21-2008


Message 46 of 103 (457111)
02-21-2008 2:12 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by subbie
02-21-2008 2:00 PM


"By the way, it's "thermodynamics." You'll have a little bit more credibility if you at least know what it's called."
Thanks. I don't care about credibility.

"For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved"- John 3:17
If God didn't create the universe, then how did it just get here?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by subbie, posted 02-21-2008 2:00 PM subbie has not replied

  
BMG
Member (Idle past 229 days)
Posts: 357
From: Southwestern U.S.
Joined: 03-16-2006


Message 47 of 103 (457112)
02-21-2008 2:12 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by ChristianJuggalo
02-21-2008 1:20 PM


Re: So then you don't really KNOW....
Also, I know it's debating, I was confused because I thought you were trying to disprove God.
Unpacking and disproving the argument of one Christian doesn't disprove Christianity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by ChristianJuggalo, posted 02-21-2008 1:20 PM ChristianJuggalo has not replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4039
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 8.1


Message 48 of 103 (457113)
02-21-2008 2:15 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by ChristianJuggalo
02-21-2008 2:09 PM


Re: Well, science has evidence.
I don't have anything against true science.
You seem to be defining "true science" as "science I personally agree with." That's not the way it works.
I just don't understand how people can say that the universe formed by itself and not have the proof.
Do snowflakes form by themselves?
We don't say the Universe formed itself - we say the Universe exists, and observe its properties. One of those properties is the dimension we call time, and as you move earlier in time the state of the Universe changes in a certain way. The Big Bang model is our representation of the earliest moments of time, and as such is basically just an observation of the way the universe did exist earlier in time.
The changes in the state of the Universe are the result of natural processes which we describe using our laws of physics - just as a snowflake forms according to those same processes.
I will not let my emotions get in the way of learning true science. I just don't believe that the universe could form all on it's own.
Personal incredulity is a perfect example of letting your emotions cloud your judgment.
Think about it.
You cook food right? The food doesn't cook it self does it?
You build a house right? It doesn't build it self does it?
Do you build a snowflake?

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subbie
Member (Idle past 1275 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 49 of 103 (457114)
02-21-2008 2:16 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by ChristianJuggalo
02-21-2008 2:09 PM


Re: Well, science has evidence.
I will not let my emotions get in the way of learning true science. I just don't believe that the universe could form all on it's own.
Well, there goes another inconsistency meter.

Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin Franklin
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

This message is a reply to:
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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 50 of 103 (457116)
02-21-2008 2:22 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by ChristianJuggalo
02-21-2008 2:09 PM


Re: Well, science has evidence.
I don't have anything against true science. I just don't understand how people can say that the universe formed by itself and not have the proof.
They do have the proof.
The Cosmic Microwave Background Radiation (<--- the Red-Shift of distant galaxies suggests that the universe is expanding from a much denser state.
I just don't believe that the universe could form all on it's own.
Have you ever heard of the Argument from Personal Incredulity? Its a logical fallacy. You can look it up. Fuck it, I'll do it for you.
Basically, you just don't understand the Big Bang theory. It doesn't say that the universe "formed all on its own". And given that you think it contradicts themodynamics, I'd say that you've been misinformed of a lot.
You cook food right? The food doesn't cook it self does it?
You build a house right? It doesn't build it self does it?
What does that have to do with the price of tea in China?
Niether of those analogies accurately discribe the Big Bang.

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ChristianJuggalo 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5872 days)
Posts: 56
From: United States
Joined: 02-21-2008


Message 51 of 103 (457118)
02-21-2008 2:26 PM


You know what, I can't answer all of these questions because I'm not that intelligent when it comes to science. I'm still young. I'm not saying science is wrong at all. I am not saying that people that don't believe in God and Jesus are wrong, because that is there own belief.
I just want to know why I never get a straight forward answer when I ask someone who doesn't believe in a creator, how has the universe always been here? They always say, "it just has" (or something similar that) Yes people, I know the universe exists, I friggin live in it.

"For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved"- John 3:17
If God didn't create the universe, then how did it just get here?

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by Rahvin, posted 02-21-2008 2:34 PM ChristianJuggalo has replied
 Message 86 by Chiroptera, posted 02-21-2008 5:37 PM ChristianJuggalo has replied
 Message 91 by fallacycop, posted 02-23-2008 6:26 AM ChristianJuggalo has not replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4039
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 8.1


Message 52 of 103 (457123)
02-21-2008 2:34 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by ChristianJuggalo
02-21-2008 2:26 PM


You know what, I can't answer all of these questions because I'm not that intelligent when it comes to science. I'm still young.
Fair enough. Hell, none of us have all the answers.
I'm not saying science is wrong at all.
...except when you say that the Big Bang contradicts the laws of thermodynamics.
I am not saying that people that don't believe in God and Jesus are wrong, because that is there own belief.
Correction: that is our own lack of belief.
I just want to know why I never get a straight forward answer when I ask someone who doesn't believe in a creator, how has the universe always been here? They always say, "it just has" (or something similar that) Yes people, I know the universe exists, I friggin live in it.
Exactly. Do you have any evidence to the contrary? Atheists don't claim to have all the answers, and neither does science. We know what we know: the Universe exists, it has existed for all of time (because time is part of the Universe), and there's nothing to suggest that it needed to be "created" beyond personal incredulity or appeals to emotion.
Read my post earlier in the thread. I explain a great deal about why atheists don't believe in the supernatural, and I think you completely missed it amongst all of the more emotional posts in this thread.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by ChristianJuggalo, posted 02-21-2008 2:26 PM ChristianJuggalo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by ChristianJuggalo, posted 02-21-2008 2:44 PM Rahvin has replied

  
ChristianJuggalo 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5872 days)
Posts: 56
From: United States
Joined: 02-21-2008


Message 53 of 103 (457124)
02-21-2008 2:36 PM


You know what? I'm just trying to ask a simple question and I know someone will say that they have already answered it or I'll have some asshole atheist use sarcasm towards me to think they are better than I am.
How could anything just happen by itself? I want to know if the universe has always been here, how? I'm not saying it hasn't and I'm not going against science.
In my opinion atheists believe that this is the cycle of our universe and existence:
NOTHING BUT SPACE.......EARTH AND LIFE ON IT.......HEAT-DEATH WHICH DESTROYS EVERYTHING ON EARTH........NO LIFE JUST SPACE

Replies to this message:
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 Message 56 by Taz, posted 02-21-2008 2:49 PM ChristianJuggalo has replied
 Message 60 by Rahvin, posted 02-21-2008 3:02 PM ChristianJuggalo has not replied

  
ChristianJuggalo 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5872 days)
Posts: 56
From: United States
Joined: 02-21-2008


Message 54 of 103 (457126)
02-21-2008 2:44 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by Rahvin
02-21-2008 2:34 PM


Correction: that is our own lack of belief.
Actually you don't believe in a creator therefore it is a belief. Even if you say a "lack of belief" it is also saying that you do have a belief. How could you have a "lack of belief" if you don't think their is anything to believe in, in the first place? By that statement you are saying you believe something, and that is that you don't believe in a creator.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by Rahvin, posted 02-21-2008 2:34 PM Rahvin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by Rahvin, posted 02-21-2008 3:23 PM ChristianJuggalo has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 55 of 103 (457128)
02-21-2008 2:45 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by ChristianJuggalo
02-21-2008 2:36 PM


How could anything just happen by itself?
Dude, shit happens.
What makes you think that things can't just happen by themselves?
And what's wrong with the answer: "We don't know."
We don't know how/why the universe is the way it must be. It just is. So what?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by ChristianJuggalo, posted 02-21-2008 2:36 PM ChristianJuggalo has not replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3312 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 56 of 103 (457130)
02-21-2008 2:49 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by ChristianJuggalo
02-21-2008 2:36 PM


Oh, I get it. You were just looking for some comfort. Children who are lonely often end up having an imaginary friend.
Here is a question for you. If you insist that the universe must have been created by god, then what created god?
Consider the following.
The universe was created by god.
God just exists.
Using Occam's razor, we can slice out the unnecessary parts and conclude that...
The universe just exists.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by ChristianJuggalo, posted 02-21-2008 2:36 PM ChristianJuggalo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by ChristianJuggalo, posted 02-21-2008 2:59 PM Taz has replied

  
ChristianJuggalo 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5872 days)
Posts: 56
From: United States
Joined: 02-21-2008


Message 57 of 103 (457131)
02-21-2008 2:51 PM


Okay, I might have confused some people about my views of the universe.
I am not against science.
I am not against theories.
I am not against beliefs.
Also, I know some people say that God could have used the "Big Bang" as a way of forming the universe, I'm not saying he didn't. Some people say that in Genesis when it said God created the Earth in 6 days, if could have been a metaphor for 6 billion years. I just haven't read good enough evidence to show me that the "Big Bang" actually happened.
If anyone has a link to the story of the "Big Bang", I would like to know so I can understand it better.

"For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved"- John 3:17
If God didn't create the universe, then how did it just get here?

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by Taz, posted 02-21-2008 2:56 PM ChristianJuggalo has replied
 Message 66 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-21-2008 3:20 PM ChristianJuggalo has not replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3312 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 58 of 103 (457132)
02-21-2008 2:56 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by ChristianJuggalo
02-21-2008 2:51 PM


CJ writes:
If anyone has a link to the story of the "Big Bang", I would like to know so I can understand it better.
Well, unlike religion, there's no "story" of the BB. Just like there's no "story" of algebra that you can just read a few paragraphs and know the "story". You actually have to spend years studying to even grasp the evidence behind it.
PS Did you learn algebra by reading a few paragraphs of texts or did you actually learn it like the rest of us and went through at least a couple years learning it?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by ChristianJuggalo, posted 02-21-2008 2:51 PM ChristianJuggalo has replied

Replies to this message:
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ChristianJuggalo 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5872 days)
Posts: 56
From: United States
Joined: 02-21-2008


Message 59 of 103 (457133)
02-21-2008 2:59 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by Taz
02-21-2008 2:49 PM


then what created god?......
Okay, taz good question. Nothing created God. You might laugh at that and that's fine. But some people believe that no one created the universe. So, we both believe something has always been here.
Also smart ass, I wasn't looking for comfort. I don't have imaginary friends either. And I'm not a child.
And why do atheists insist on making fun of us christians and using sarcasm against us? Do you think you're better than us because you believe something different?
I think it's stupid as shit to believe we are here just to live and die and rot in the ground in this chaotic world. Yeah, lets live this short life and never have conscience again after we die, woohoo!

"For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved"- John 3:17
If God didn't create the universe, then how did it just get here?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by Taz, posted 02-21-2008 2:49 PM Taz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by Taz, posted 02-21-2008 3:09 PM ChristianJuggalo has not replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4039
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 8.1


Message 60 of 103 (457135)
02-21-2008 3:02 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by ChristianJuggalo
02-21-2008 2:36 PM


You know what? I'm just trying to ask a simple question and I know someone will say that they have already answered it or I'll have some asshole atheist use sarcasm towards me to think they are better than I am.
Settle down. Getting angry isn't going to answer your question. I haven't responded to you with sarcasm, or mocked you, and yet you've completely ignored my posts after I called your attempt to prove god a "fool's errand."
How could anything just happen by itself?
All sorts of things happen by themselves. Stars form spontaneously. Snowflakes form spontaneously.
I want to know if the universe has always been here, how? I'm not saying it hasn't and I'm not going against science.
The problem is that there doesn't appear to be an answer to your question. We know with a reasonable degree of certainty the state of the Universe from a tiny fraction of a second after the beginning of the expansion onward. But time ends at T=0. Again, when you ask "what caused the Universe?" you're asking "what is North of the North Pole?" It's an impossible question without an answer, as we currently understand the Universe.
In my opinion atheists believe that this is the cycle of our universe and existence:
NOTHING BUT SPACE.......EARTH AND LIFE ON IT.......HEAT-DEATH WHICH DESTROYS EVERYTHING ON EARTH........NO LIFE JUST SPACE
Your opinion is incorrect.
The Big Bang does not propose any such thing as "nothing but space." Here's something mroe accurately describing the timeline:
(The Universe exists in an incredibly small and dense form. Our mathematics cannot describe it at this point, because matter would have existed in a form we do not yet understand at that level of heat and density.)
->
(Beginning at T=0, the Universe expands at an exponential rate. This is not a chemical explosion like we're used to, but rather the dimensions of length, width, and height are expanding. Becasue the volume of the Unvierse increases, the density decreases, and things start to cool down.)
->
(Something we would recognize as matter begins to form from the state it was in previously. All matter in the Universe exists as a quark/gluon plasma - basically it's composed of the particles that make up protons, neutrons, etc, and they're still so hot and dense that they haven't formed into normal subatomic particles yet.)
->
(As the expansion continues, the Universe cools down more from the ever-decreasing density. The epansion slows down. The quark/gluon plasma starts to coalesce into matter and antimatter - matter "wins" becasue there happen to be more quarks than antiquarks. The antimatter that does form is quickly annihilated into gamma rays by contact with equal amounts of regular matter until basically only normal matter remains. At this point, roughly 90% of the Universe exists as Hydrogen nuclei, with the rest mainly being composed of Helium. Electrons still cannot bond to the nuclei as it is still too hot. We are now at T=10^-16; in other words, we are now at 0.0000000000000001 seconds past the beginning of the expansion.)
->
(While the Universe continues to expand at something closer to the rate we see today, all of that Hydrogen starts to congregate around the most dense areas. After around 400,000 years or so, gravitational attraction forces the Hydrogen into such a small volume that the density generates enough heat to initiate nuclear fusion. The first stars are born, and boy are they gigantic.)
->
(After a long period of time, the first stars begin to consume all of their nuclear fuel. Basically, fusion creates heavier atoms out of two or more lighter atoms. Eventually the process reaches a point where the star becomes unstable, the gravitational attraction that holds the explosive force of all of the fusion finally loses out, and the star explodes in a supernova. This is literally where all of the heavy elements come from, including everything you and I and the Earth are made of - leftovers from exploding stars. Pretty cool, huh?)
->
(The stellar life cycle repeats. Eventually the leavings of several stars in a cluster can congregate into a new stellar nebula, where a new star is born. becasue of the presence of heavy elements this time, solar systems compelte with planets can be formed. One such system contains Earth. Icy comets, since water is the most prevalent molecule in the Universe after H2, deliver water to the surface of the Earth.)
->
(At some point life forms on Earth. It may be abiogenesis, where non-living organic chemicals spontaneously combine to form the first imperfectly self-replicating molecule, like RNA. It may be space aliens, or a microbe from a comet, or god. The honest answer is we don't know how life got here, we just know that it wasn't here, and then it was, in the form of a single-celled lifeform.)
->
(The process of imperfect replication and natural selection take over, creating diversity among the new lifeforms. After several million years, multicellular life forms, and we begin to see some of the variety of life that we can observe today. This is what we call evolution.)
->
(After a few million years of evolution progressing, the first of what we would call human beings appear. A few scant thousand years later, I'm typing a response to you over a computer network we call the Internet.)
There is no "creation from nothingness" in the model currently held by scientists. Does any of this help?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by ChristianJuggalo, posted 02-21-2008 2:36 PM ChristianJuggalo has not replied

  
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