Satan and prayer

As point of clarification I do not believe "we merely need an evolved ... government". I wouldn't object to you citing that Christianity has been abused by many if you also would include that it has abused many. I'm not sure how to compute the score but after Constantine it made up for lost time and has had approximately 1500 years to abuse, slaughter etc. a lot of heretics and non believers (and the belief that it's victims were somehow in league with Satan has often been offered as a rational for all the killing and torture).It's obviously hundreds of years older than capitalism so I'm not saying it's merely a tool only that is has been and is being used as a tool, among other uses. I'm not saying that that is its prime use or anything. I know that there are christians whose faith leads them to actively fight evil in this world. Nuns and Priests were tortured and killed in Guatamala for trying to help the people. So I'm not saying that Christianity is just a tool, or always a tool just pointing out when it's being misused. The problem with solutions of the type "Original Sin" and "Satan did it" is that it removes the problem to mythical times, realms, and forces. The evil we deal with occurs in this world by agencies present in this world, humans, germs, disasters. We need to study and understand these agencies.Solutions won't come about by praying for or against Satan. Satan is only a concept of the cause. The research being done on the brain and behaviour right now offers the beginnings of real understanding of why humans do what they do. It is a shame we don't study criminals like Ted Bundy, or John Gacy, doing brain scans etc., just disposing of them doesn't contribute to understanding the real nature of the problem.And however hopeful Christianity is with a belief in original sin and Satan and prayer it offers hope in the future in another world i.e. life in heaven after death. How does that help with problems that people have to solve in this life in this world? Those are the tasks rationality and science are working on.Praying for or against Satan is just a pointless activity, a fantasy, well maybe it gives pleasure or meaning of some sort. But to effect change we need to use science, data, evidence, experimentation.lfen

The deciding factor is the human decision making process. We create our own chess game in this spiritual struggle. The struggle is an absolute reality to some of us, yet by this admission, we set ourselves up for embarrassment. Remember the Proctor&Gamble hoax?Humor & Whimsy

You pit rationality and science as the opposite. But I ask you now, if you were to love your enemy and neighbour completely, and everybody you know, also done this - aswell as the world, what problems would there be? Only a few left for science I would bet!To dismiss Christ's teachings of peace is silly. It motivates presently - a VAST number of people, to do peaceful acts.RATHER I would say, that praying has done us believers only good. We have prayed, yes - and received.So I am not against science, but the fact is that you tout past events and horrors upon us, of which we have not even bare witness with our eyes.Did you not know that governments and mafias are BOTH worldly interests? They pursue NOT the Kingdom of God. Now tell me - you do atleast know who the prince of this world is right? The same guy who offered Christ kingdoms OF the world.We are not being played. Do you count us as fools? Do not be so obtuse as to buy into religious steryotypes that play you like a fiddle~. A great and devilish veil is upon you Ifen . And we are not even disputing the physical/scientific truths to evils!This message has been edited by mike the wiz, 09-10-2004 01:34 PM

"We create" meaning humans create a spiritual chess game? Or are we playing the game God created for us? Understanding we are speaking metaphorically here. But what is decided? Some christians at least seem to hold that the outcome has been prophesied, which means to me the fix is in and was from the get go.What puzzles me is why God wants to play a game that has a certain outcome? I mean I have some idea. I played Final Fantasy X with my niece and enjoyed it even though with the help of internet walkthroughs we knew we would eventually win, it was the getting there that was novel.But if God is omniscient there is no novelty. Perhaps this whole universe is a dream God is having? Or put another way, the universe and everything in it is a thought, or fantasy God has dreamed up? And as the great authors know a good story requires a good villian, perhaps Satan is a dramatis personae in God's dream, kind of like the villian in FFX that we had to defeat?lfen

I like this point very much and agree with you. I do wish there wasn't so much contradiction in the books of the Bible because the teachings of bringing a sword and such create conflicts, but what I find to be the best of Christianity is very good. I do that to balance out the tendency of christians to adopt the innocent martyr role based on a few periods in history and to leave out the larger chunks of history when it was the church doing the persecutions. I don't think this is unique to Christianity and I disagree with claiming anything special based on the persecutions in Rome or where ever else. Sure, Bill Gates! (just joking, well, only kinda, actually ...?)Literally there is no office "Prince of this World". But I know some? many? almost all? Christians would say Satan is prince of this world. But if you can't establish the actuality of Satan, it doesn't matter how many offices an imaginary demon holds. It's like "If we had bacon, we could have bacon and eggs, if we had eggs." Not sure how you define fool. I count you as someone who finds such personal satisfaction in believing the christian story that you are willing to set aside science, rationality, logic, and fact in order to have faith that that story is really really true. I wouldn't judge that decision as foolish, but it can lead to foolishness such as those who repeatedly claim in the absence of evidence and in the presence of myriad falsifications that nonetheless there really was a world wide flood because the Bible says so.Correct me if I've misunderstood you, but I will assume this "devilish veil" that is upon me refers my unwillingness to join you in making believe that the Bible is a full true factual inerrant account of the absolute reality of this universe.lfen

I suppose you can find contradictions if you want to. But a literal reading will ofcourse bring them. For example, the lamb of God - is it literally a lamb? Ofcourse not. But rather, when we use the bible for what it's meant for; Prophecies, and the necessity of a walk with God, and the spirit revealing the meanings thereof, then you'll find these contradictions are esteemed highly, by the quote minor, but not the wisdom seeker. Well, yes - good point. Only one is good, God.And I won't even dare mention this "church" as it is an alien to me. Yet I am also sinful. Well, we establish that evil is evidence of satan, but convincing you guys that 1. Evil exists, and 2. The owner of it does also, is a hard task. Science, I accept it. Rationality, I can also know about reality. Logic, I know many modus ponens.These are assumptions Ifen. I will give you the benefit of the doubt, and presume that you think I am a creationismist.

No, Satan exsists on a plane simliar to God's if not the same. When he created it all, he was generous enough to give us all free will, including satan. So Satan's choice could have been at, or in a time, or without time, so we can't understand it. However it was made, and in the end, we will be victorious.So life is all about choices, you should know that, you choose a non-revealed religion. Every single thing we could possibly think about is related to whether it is for God's glory or not, good or bad. You cannot make a descion without including this. Clearly evidence of of the battle between God and Satan. Even though its subjective, it is overwhelming.When I say the whole thing, I am refering to our life after the fall.

I probably was thinking you were a creationist, they do seem to dominate the Bible side of debates here that I tend to get geared to answering their point of view.What is your view on the age of the universe and evolution then?lfen

MTW Pretty much as it is now.What makes you think it would be otherwise?

Here is the story of Flight 93 retold:
http://www.post-gazette.com/.../20011028flt93mainstoryp7.asp
As most of you know, there was a lot of life and death decisions on Flight 93, which crashed 3 years ago today. One question which I might bring to the forum is this: Were the terrorists and the passengers who chose to give their lives worshipping the same God?
Obviously, as a Christian, I would say that No, they were not. One thing that I have thought about when talking to some of you who are not as "spiritual" as myself and Mike is the fact that fundamentalist mindsets are never the most stable. I will admit that this includes zealous Christians as well. But what of these passengers? They faced death as bravely as their killers. They were forced to confront the life and death issues of their faith. They acted selflessly to save lives...for they knew that the plane would probably target something in Washington D.C. Perhaps they thought that they would be victorious and not die.
I don't know if I would have been able to be as courageous as they were.

Hi Phat,Someone should start a 9/11 thread. I tend to be a discursive thinker and that shows in my posts, but I don't read in your post how this is connected to the topic or even to Riverrats post. Maybe you could start a 9/11 post in the proposed topics?lfen

I am not exactly sure why you have made this knowledge known to us in a response to what I said. But I will give you my thoughts.They cleary were faced with a decision between good and bad. Even thought the decision included their own death possibly. It was a not a gaurantied death, but a risk worth taking knowing what they knew. I definatly would have done the same thing in a heart beat. Yes they were. They just weren't following God they way they were supposed to. This is niether God's fault, or the bibles, or the Koran. It was cleary the fault of man, and his weakness for Satan's will.

Well, since there is no demonstrated satan, nor god, they were doing their own will.

Inaccurate in a biblical sense

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-porcelain

Prove it.This is a comment from someone who doesn't even now what the bible means, or what the word repent is.Your ignorance of God, does not give you a right to claim there is none.You can say that you don't believe if you wish.