Who's afraid of a godless universe?

There is a song, by a band known as VnV nation. The lyrics go And that terrifies me. The thought that for the grand majority of the projected life span of the universe nothing will care, or remember, all this struggle, passion, desire and joy. I want the works of Shakespeare to be a permanent landmark in the universe - a never fading testament to our achievements.So does the idea of there being a God terrify me more? Probably not. A tyrannical God could probably scare me, but at least there was some point, even if it is arbitrary and unnecessarily painful.On balance, I'd rather there was a God. I'm also painfully aware that the universe is under no obligation to grant my desires. As such, I'll just enjoy what I have and treat it as an unusual, basically surreal, privelaged experience and treat living as the unique and wonderful opportunity I feel it is.In a way, my desire for permanence has been found. If the universe just IS and time is but a dimension then Shakespeare is, and 'always' 'will be' an entity in the universe, so will and my loved ones. It isn't just the expanse of space that is wonderful, it is the entirety of space-time that is wonderful, and it often moves me to tears to think that I'm a part of it.

Even I before I became a believer would simply have taken all the above as a perfectly human and honest expression.Since I became a believer, something in me fairly screams, DON'T YOU KNOW THAT A BEING THAT HAS SUCH FEELINGS COULDN'T POSSIBLY HAVE COME TO EXIST BY PURELY BIOCHEMICAL PROCESSES? DON'T YOU KNOW THAT THE VERY EXISTENCE OF SUCH FEELINGS PROVES THAT THERE IS A GOD WHO MADE YOU AND THAT HE IS A GOOD GOD?But I guess not. As I said, before I was a believer, I could just have shrugged and said, Well, yeah, me too, and here we are, and all of it is for nothing, so make whatever you can of it. But if you don't succeed at making anything of it, no real loss.This message has been edited by Faith, 02-20-2006 01:40 AM

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DON'T YOU KNOW THAT A BEING THAT HAS SUCH FEELINGS COULDN'T POSSIBLY HAVE COME TO EXIST BY PURELY BIOCHEMICAL PROCESSES?

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Why not?

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DON'T YOU KNOW THAT THE VERY EXISTENCE OF SUCH FEELINGS PROVES THAT THERE IS A GOD WHO MADE YOU AND THAT HE IS A GOOD GOD?

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Says you.Does that mean that because there are people who feel that aliens have been beaming messages into their brains proves that aliens exist and are communicating with them?

Shakespeare was a nihilist.

Erm, thanks for the tidbit. Were you making a point or just providing a relatively random piece of information?Sadly, we'll never know most things about Will, including his religion. We can infer some things, but nothing concrete. He certainly understood nihilism - Macbeth pretty much covers it, but he also understood christianity. I believe there are several plays where characters profess Catholic views, which, along with some other evidence, leads people to think he was a closet Catholic who suffered a major cosmic depression.Who can say, huh? As interesting as he is, he's probably not on topic unless I add a couple of quotes.

the bard writes:

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Ay, but to die, and go we know not where;

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To lie in cold obstruction, and to rot;

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This sensible warm motion to become

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A kneaded clod; and the delighted spirit

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To bathe in fiery floods, or to reside

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In thrilling region of thick-ribbed ice;

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To be imprison'd in the viewless winds,

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And blown with restless violence round about

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The pendent world; or to be worse than worst

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Of those that lawless and incertain thoughts

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Imagine howling! 'tis too horrible!

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The weariest and most loathed worldly life

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That age, ache, penury, and imprisonment

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Can lay on nature, is a. paradise

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To what we fear of death.

And his godless world:

Will writes:

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To-morrow, and to-morrow, and to-morrow

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Creeps in this petty pace from day to day,

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To the last syllable of recorded time;

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And all our yesterdays have lighted fools

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The way to dusty death. Out, out, brief candle!

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Life's but a walking shadow; a poor player.

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That struts and frets his hour upon the stage,

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And then is heard no more: it is a tale

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Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,

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Signifying nothing.

This message has been edited by Modulous, Mon, 20-February-2006 01:06 AM

WHAT!!???... Robin, what is it and you with "nihilism"?Shakespeare was not a nihilist any more than the Buddha was. Shakespeare was a sage, it's just that he unlike very few westerners knew that being didn't end with the ego, rather it began where the ego ended.Now I have to go find that danged quote from the Tempest again....PROSPERO
You do look, my son, in a moved sort,
As if you were dismay'd: be cheerful, sir.
Our revels now are ended. These our actors,
As I foretold you, were all spirits and
Are melted into air, into thin air:
And, like the baseless fabric of this vision,
The cloud-capp'd towers, the gorgeous palaces,
The solemn temples, the great globe itself,
Ye all which it inherit, shall dissolve
And, like this insubstantial pageant faded,
Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff
As dreams are made on, and our little life
Is rounded with a sleep.Now you can take this nihilistically if you want, but Buddha said the same thing as did Ramana among others. It is what lies beyond the dream. It is who awakens from the dreaming. The notion of the literal "saving" of the ego that dominates western cultural religion is the worst case scenario because if establishes a ceiling beyond which it is forbidden to look or worse go. The few who do are taunted as "heretics" as you've read in these threads.lfen

its funny faith, because all those feelings and such that "proves" god are purely biochemical processes! what does that tell you? that there is something to relate them?

My favorite from The Tempest: No Fall, no Rise. Only change.

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"Dost thou think because thou art virtuous there shall be no more cakes and ale?"
-Sir Toby Belch, Twelfth Night Save lives! Click here!
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That's a very nihilistic statement.Shakespeare is full of such stuff. There's the graveyard scene in Hamlet, for example. You can't get more nihilistic than that. Where are your jokes now, Yorick? Your skull might make a good doorstop--that's about it.

One of my favorites (from one of my all time favorite bands, NIN):

JavaMan I do not know what there would be to fear amongst either scenario. If we are lost in a universe without aim and purpose the best you can do is enjoy the ride hopefully along with others but enjoy it nonetheless.If we are ruled by an all powerful god then it seems a futile waste of time time rail against the landlord as long as we are in the building eh?

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Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so.
Douglas Adams

I find neither one scary, JavaMan.On the one hand, oblivion holds no terrors for me.On the other, if there is a God, and that God is a despotic tyrant, being afraid won't change a thing. Despotic tyrants aren't known for keeping their word, anyway. A reasonable God would understand the lack of grounds for belief--until She provided them.Besides, I can't make myself believe what I don't believe, and I've never backed down from bullies, so...*shrugs*I ain't scared of no ghost.

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"Dost thou think because thou art virtuous there shall be no more cakes and ale?"
-Sir Toby Belch, Twelfth Night Save lives! Click here!
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC!
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Because that would involve us believing that a random assortment of chemical accidents resulted in a creature that is able to decide that they are a random assortment of chemical accidents. Could the random assortment of chemical accidents called Schraf explain why her conclusion shouldn't be taken with a pinch of another random assortment of chemical accidents (salt)God appears to be a better option. It is a rational option at least.This message has been edited by iano, 20-Feb-2006 01:14 PM

Hi, iano.

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It is a rational option at least.

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Personal incredulity is not rational. In fact, just the opposite: it is a fallacy.

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"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt

Salt is a strictly defined crystalline structure of Na and Cl. Can you tell me what's random about it?

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The true mystery of the world is the visible, not the invisible