Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
4 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,819 Year: 3,076/9,624 Month: 921/1,588 Week: 104/223 Day: 2/13 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   The ulitmate sin: blasphemy against the Holy Ghost
Trump won 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1240 days)
Posts: 1928
Joined: 01-12-2004


Message 121 of 134 (187280)
02-21-2005 5:50 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Gilgamesh
12-28-2004 10:46 PM


It means that you rejected the Holy Ghost from going into to you and if you don't let him in, it is a sin, when you die you can't recieve it no longer.
It's a metaphor about being spiritually malnourished and dying that way.

-one word to describe me, spectacular yes

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Gilgamesh, posted 12-28-2004 10:46 PM Gilgamesh has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 123 by LinearAq, posted 03-03-2005 9:13 AM Trump won has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 122 of 134 (189744)
03-03-2005 7:28 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by Gilgamesh
12-29-2004 12:30 AM


Dissing the Ghost
Gilgamesh writes:
By my reading of that above link, any ex-born again Christian is thereotically blaspheming against the Holy Ghost.
There is no such thing as an ex-born again Christian. Once you have actually "met" someone you cannot deny that they ever existed unless you actually only imagined that you met them.
An individual who has truly met God will know. They will know because they will undeniably experience the encounter. It is a spiritual experience.
If after having had such an experience one were to honestly question their own sanity and opt out of the belief, they would be judged by their own internal honesty. The scribes with Jesus could not honestly deny that they were experiencing a spiritual encounter so they blasphemed by lying concerning which spirit it was. They resisted the Holy Spirit.
Many of you have never actually had such an experience.
Many others have had certain experience yet have chosen to define and label the encounter which they have had. Are they blasphemers? I am not the judge of that one. Only God knows for sure.
One thing that I believe and conclude. The Holy Spirit changes you when you meet Him. You do not have the option of assigning a value and belief on Him. You either accept Him, postphone judgement while you get more information, or reject Him.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Gilgamesh, posted 12-29-2004 12:30 AM Gilgamesh has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 124 by LinearAq, posted 03-03-2005 9:31 AM Phat has replied
 Message 128 by Gilgamesh, posted 03-03-2005 5:35 PM Phat has replied

  
LinearAq
Member (Idle past 4676 days)
Posts: 598
From: Pocomoke City, MD
Joined: 11-03-2004


Message 123 of 134 (189751)
03-03-2005 9:13 AM
Reply to: Message 121 by Trump won
02-21-2005 5:50 PM


After you die?
chris writes:
It means that you rejected the Holy Ghost from going into to you and if you don't let him in, it is a sin, when you die you can't recieve it no longer.
Does this mean that as long as we ask forgiveness before we die, any sin will be forgiven? (Assuming we have been "born again")
Then that really means that there is no sin that will not be forgiven as long as you ask before you die. Kinda makes those words of JC a little close to worthless. Besides, Paul wrote that there is a sin that won't be forgiven too. Is he also referring to not asking forgiveness before death?

If faith is "...evidence of things hoped for and the substance of things not seen..." from what material do you build your faith?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by Trump won, posted 02-21-2005 5:50 PM Trump won has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 127 by Trump won, posted 03-03-2005 4:19 PM LinearAq has replied

  
LinearAq
Member (Idle past 4676 days)
Posts: 598
From: Pocomoke City, MD
Joined: 11-03-2004


Message 124 of 134 (189753)
03-03-2005 9:31 AM
Reply to: Message 122 by Phat
03-03-2005 7:28 AM


Re: Dissing the Ghost
Phatboy writes:
An individual who has truly met God will know. They will know because they will undeniably experience the encounter. It is a spiritual experience.
Just so I don't miss or misinterpret the encounter, what are the characteristics of this encounter that make it undeniable? What makes this encounter distinguishable from...say...an hallucination?
One thing that I believe and conclude. The Holy Spirit changes you when you meet Him.
What are the indicators of these changes that the Holy Spirit causes?
You do not have the option of assigning a value and belief on Him. You either accept Him, postphone judgement while you get more information, or reject Him.
If I meet the Holy Spirit, then He will make Himself real enough to me that I have no choice but to believe in Him? Like I believe in something I can touch? Does this mean that I haven't met Him yet, since I don't believe in Him?
Since it seems to require conviction by this Holy Spirit in order for conversion to take place, and God wants everyone to be converted...then Everyone must have an encounter with the Holy Spirit sometime in their life. So before death, everyone believes in the Holy Spirit; though most reject Him. Is this a proper conclusion from your belief? OR am I missing something?

If faith is "...evidence of things hoped for and the substance of things not seen..." from what material do you build your faith?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by Phat, posted 03-03-2005 7:28 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 125 by Phat, posted 03-03-2005 10:11 AM LinearAq has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 125 of 134 (189761)
03-03-2005 10:11 AM
Reply to: Message 124 by LinearAq
03-03-2005 9:31 AM


Re: Dissing the Ghost
L.Ag writes:
what are the characteristics of this encounter that make it undeniable? What makes this encounter distinguishable from...say...an hallucination?
I can only speak for myself, but the encounter was a lasting change as opposed to a weird aberration. The encounter was not a visual one and I have had additional verifications that this Holy Spirit is a real presence.
If I meet the Holy Spirit, then He will make Himself real enough to me that I have no choice but to believe in Him?
I can't say. In retrospect, I was free to disbelieve what I had experienced, and I think that one may have several encounters before they accept the reality of the Spirit.
Since it seems to require conviction by this Holy Spirit in order for conversion to take place, and God wants everyone to be converted...then Everyone must have an encounter with the Holy Spirit sometime in their life. So before death, everyone believes in the Holy Spirit; though most reject Him. Is this a proper conclusion from your belief? OR am I missing something?
Everyone will have several encounters with the Holy Spirit in their lives. I can't say that most will reject Him. The Bible DOES say that few find the narrow path, but I can in no way assume that God chooses a minority of people. He desires salvation for ALL. God is not a religious concept. He is the article of our faith. He is, perhaps, more abstract for some than for others. His character, however, is not vague and undefineable. We may never fully understand Him, yet we will most certainly know Him. IMHO, anyway.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by LinearAq, posted 03-03-2005 9:31 AM LinearAq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 126 by LinearAq, posted 03-03-2005 1:03 PM Phat has not replied

  
LinearAq
Member (Idle past 4676 days)
Posts: 598
From: Pocomoke City, MD
Joined: 11-03-2004


Message 126 of 134 (189788)
03-03-2005 1:03 PM
Reply to: Message 125 by Phat
03-03-2005 10:11 AM


Re: Dissing the Ghost
P-boy writes:
...the encounter was a lasting change as opposed to a weird aberration. The encounter was not a visual one and I have had additional verifications that this Holy Spirit is a real presence.
Not trying to be too personal but what specifically about the encounter made you understand that it was not a "weird aberration"?
What verifications?....Let's get real here...I have no idea how to tell if any encounter I may have in the future is real or a chink in my sanity. Externally verifiable would be nice. However, I'm guessing that HS doesn't like to appear to crowds or provide detectible parameters to confirm His presence.
It would be great to know if I am in the presence of the HS so I don't go insulting or blaspheming Him through my ignorance.
BTW: Have we established, biblically, what He would consider as blasphemy to Him?

If faith is "...evidence of things hoped for and the substance of things not seen..." from what material do you build your faith?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by Phat, posted 03-03-2005 10:11 AM Phat has not replied

  
Trump won 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1240 days)
Posts: 1928
Joined: 01-12-2004


Message 127 of 134 (189837)
03-03-2005 4:19 PM
Reply to: Message 123 by LinearAq
03-03-2005 9:13 AM


Re: After you die?
I believe so.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by LinearAq, posted 03-03-2005 9:13 AM LinearAq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 131 by LinearAq, posted 03-04-2005 9:41 AM Trump won has replied

  
Gilgamesh
Inactive Member


Message 128 of 134 (189864)
03-03-2005 5:35 PM
Reply to: Message 122 by Phat
03-03-2005 7:28 AM


This is quite off topic but then this thread is old and maybe the admins wont notice!
Phat writes
There is no such thing as an ex-born again Christian. Once you have actually "met" someone you cannot deny that they ever existed unless you actually only imagined that you met them.
Well there are plenty of people who once professed to be born again Christians who now no longer claim that Christianity is a valid religion, and no longer call themselves born again Christians. They now realise that their experience was not valid.
Christians never actually get "knowledge" of God or Christ. They merely undergo a emotive psychological process (conversion or enlightenment) and then ongoing thought re-enforcement process that while they are submitting themselves to it gives them the impression of Christian "knowledge".
If they actually gain knowledge, if they actually meet God or Christ as you claim, why do Christians:
1) Have to submit to ongoing thought re-enforcement techniques: prayer, congregation, repetitive sermons, singing, information control, and fellowshipping with like minded individuals etc. These thought control techniques are similar to those uses by political totalitarianisms. Why is that?
2 )Sometimes reject their faith and their conversion experience, as some of the members on this very forum have?
An individual who has truly met God will know. They will know because they will undeniably experience the encounter. It is a spiritual experience.
No, it's a subjective physchlogical experience. It is nothing mysterious, can be induced by many methods and can take varied forms. It is known to science, can be induced by drugs or other external stimuli (like that Canadian scientists "Holy Spirit in a Helmet" that induces temporal lobe experiences complete with visions of the deity of your choice). It is not unique to Christianity, but evangelicals use the process extensively.
It works like this:
1) Individual is usually emotionally vulnerable
2) Is sold an emotive pie-the-sky message about eternal life and love
3) Receives a period of spiritual indoctrination (of varying length)
4) Is placed in a physically and emotively vulnerable position: usually partially disrobed for full immersion baptism in front of entire congregation
5) Often pressured to perform in a particular manner
6) Sometimes this individual then has an emotional breakdown which manifests in a "religious experience" (which greatly varies between individuals), May experience Glossolalia (speaking in tongues) if appropriate to that faith and asked to repeat multi-syllable words like "hallelujah" and "praise the Lord"
7) The individual is told that these experiences are what the Bible predicted they are put in the context of that particular faith
8) The individual is then required to submit to ongoing indoctrination to re-enforce an otherwise transitory and insubstantial physchlogical experience
If the individual does not have the enlightenment experience on cue, then they are required to re-submit to it and to further ongoing indoctrination until something happens. If nothing happens it is always considered a fault of the individual.
If after having had such an experience one were to honestly question their own sanity and opt out of the belief, they would be judged by their own internal honesty.
Cool; I'm safe then.
Many of you have never actually had such an experience.
You don't know what they or I have experienced. The whole thing is chronically subjective anyway and strongly contextual. An Islamic convertee experiences knowledge of Allah during enlightement.
One thing that I believe and conclude. The Holy Spirit changes you when you meet Him.
Yes you changed. You underwent a psychological transformation/breakdown. Such a change can change world-views and personalities. Unfortunately because you underwent such a change in a religious context, much of what you believe you experienced and now much of what you believe is untrue.
You can now add into your knowledge gathering techniques such flaws such as Confirmation Bias and Post-Hoc reasoning. You also now believe in fictional entities and conspiracy theories.
Fabulous.
God is not a religious concept. He is the article of our faith. He is, perhaps, more abstract for some than for others. His character, however, is not vague and undefinable.
God's character is inconceivably vague and indefinable. The number of religions and number of Gods throughout history attests to that. The number of Christian faiths attests to that. The dispute amongst Christians on this very site attests to that. And it all attests to the fact that this God/Gods are simply made up.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by Phat, posted 03-03-2005 7:28 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 129 by Phat, posted 03-04-2005 2:01 AM Gilgamesh has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 129 of 134 (189955)
03-04-2005 2:01 AM
Reply to: Message 128 by Gilgamesh
03-03-2005 5:35 PM


Naturalistic Post Modern Worldview
You have described your scientific worldview very well. It makes good sense and it is backed by verification in many controlled experiences.
I guess that I am insane or brainwashed then, because I
honestly have not concluded that my experience can be easily explained away so concisely. G.K. Chesterson commented that original sin is one biblical concept that can be easily verified by observation of the species.
As for demons and angels, I cannot prove that they are not real without allowing scientific logic (human wisdom) to dominate my mind. I will not do it.
This proves that some believers are irrational based on the scientific definition of rationality. Human wisdom will never displace God in my mind.
I don't think like you do. I do not lump my God with a human definition of gods and goddesses throughout history. To me, He is much different. Truth is an absolute, yet everyone cannot be forced to see this.
This message has been edited by Phatboy, 03-04-2005 00:03 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by Gilgamesh, posted 03-03-2005 5:35 PM Gilgamesh has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 130 by LinearAq, posted 03-04-2005 9:36 AM Phat has replied

  
LinearAq
Member (Idle past 4676 days)
Posts: 598
From: Pocomoke City, MD
Joined: 11-03-2004


Message 130 of 134 (190011)
03-04-2005 9:36 AM
Reply to: Message 129 by Phat
03-04-2005 2:01 AM


Re: Naturalistic Post Modern Worldview
I would quote you but what's the point? I have read many of your posts and believed most to be very thoughtful and reasonable. However, in this case, you seem to spout as many key words and tricky phrases from the fundy handbook as you can remember while you are writing.
"God is beyond human logic". Then how can we ever determine if we are worshiping the right one?
"You can't prove there is no God". Well, no one can prove that something doesn't exist.
And on and on....
Frankly, I don't know who G.K. Chesterton is but he appears to know little of observation and nothing of determining causal relationships. To be fair to him, though, I will look for some writings by him. (those about him would probably be prejudiced, one way or the other). Heck, I gave Lee Strobel ("Case for a Creator") a chance for a while
Please don't be offended. I have been through the fundy mill before. I made a number of friends in my church and they don't understand why I question their beliefs. I still want to keep them as friends but I am slowly being shut out. Seems odd for a group that wants to bring people to the Kingdom.

If faith is "...evidence of things hoped for and the substance of things not seen..." from what material do you build your faith?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by Phat, posted 03-04-2005 2:01 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 132 by Phat, posted 03-04-2005 10:14 AM LinearAq has replied

  
LinearAq
Member (Idle past 4676 days)
Posts: 598
From: Pocomoke City, MD
Joined: 11-03-2004


Message 131 of 134 (190012)
03-04-2005 9:41 AM
Reply to: Message 127 by Trump won
03-03-2005 4:19 PM


Who's?
chris writes:
I believe so.
Indeed?
Who's definition did we agree on?
What were the bible passages that were used to provide support for this definition? I am, of course, assuming that the Bible is the source of that definition since the Bible is the only place where this ultimate sin is mentioned.
edited because I forgot how to do quotes.
This message has been edited by LinearAq, 03-04-2005 09:43 AM

If faith is "...evidence of things hoped for and the substance of things not seen..." from what material do you build your faith?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by Trump won, posted 03-03-2005 4:19 PM Trump won has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 134 by Trump won, posted 03-05-2005 11:13 AM LinearAq has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 132 of 134 (190019)
03-04-2005 10:14 AM
Reply to: Message 130 by LinearAq
03-04-2005 9:36 AM


Re: Naturalistic Post Modern Worldview
Hi, Linear Ag and Gilgamesh! You guys simply do not understand the depth of belief within a believer; either that or you do not care. You seem to think that a believer can step outside of themselves and critically analyze why they think the way that they do with no emotion attached.
To explain better, lets take two hypothetical 9 year olds. One is being told that Santa Claus is not real. He or she may be a bit depressed but more than likely will be given confirmation to what they already suspected. After all, there were never any footprints on the roof, the chimney was even closed one Christmas, and the cookies that he/she left out were found back in the cookie jar! They never saw Santa except for the phonies at the Mall, and some of their friends laughed at them for sticking to this obvious myth.
Our second 9 year old had two parents who divorced. His Dad was a Navy pilot. He never remembers exactly what his Dad looks like, and his Mom has no pictures, yet he DID meet his Dad once when he was younger. He can remember the day perfectly and while he does not remember what his father looked like on that day, he does remember that his Father told him that he loved him very much! Now, however, his Mom wants to break off all contact with this man and keep her son from what she feels is an eventual letdown. She tells her son that his Dad never really was his Dad and that he was brainwashed by a man who did not care for her or the family and who they need not associate with any more. Do you think that this kid will let go so easily? Only if he blots the fact that he had a Dad out of his mind.
It won't happen easily.
This is how I feel about God. God is not some vague fairytale concept that gives me comfort. God is always there to listen and I believe that He speaks into my life. For you to tell me that
You underwent a psychological transformation/breakdown. Such a change can change world-views and personalities. Unfortunately because you underwent such a change in a religious context, much of what you believe you experienced and now much of what you believe is untrue.
This may be how you explained it to yourself, but not to me!
And then you inform me that
God's character is inconceivably vague and indefinable.
How do expect me to respond? I am sad that you do not know God as well as I do. I am puzzled as to how to get you to see Him as I do. You may be equally frustrated at getting me to know reality as you know it. Understand where I am coming from?
LinearAq writes:
Well, no one can prove that something doesn't exist.
And if you have experienced knowing a character rather than a concept you would not want to prove that the character was a figment of your imagination. You indeed would not allow yourself to deny what to you was obvious. A believer has allowed God to be over their human wisdom. You are asking us to trust our human wisdom and reject the fact that we allowed anything or anyone to lord over it. For us, it is too late because we have verified the character of God to our own belief and reconciled our human wisdom as subservient to this fact.
This message has been edited by Phatboy, 03-04-2005 08:27 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by LinearAq, posted 03-04-2005 9:36 AM LinearAq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 133 by LinearAq, posted 03-04-2005 11:15 AM Phat has not replied

  
LinearAq
Member (Idle past 4676 days)
Posts: 598
From: Pocomoke City, MD
Joined: 11-03-2004


Message 133 of 134 (190029)
03-04-2005 11:15 AM
Reply to: Message 132 by Phat
03-04-2005 10:14 AM


Re: Naturalistic Post Modern Worldview
BTW: the subtitle is another fundy handbook saying
Phatboy writes:
This is how I feel about God. God is not some vague fairytale concept that gives me comfort. God is always there to listen and I believe that He speaks into my life. For you to tell me that
I really liked your explanation. It clearly shows how you FEEL that your experience with God/HS is different than your experience with Santa Clause (btw--I always ate the cookies).
However:
You have never stated what it was about your meeting with God/HS that made it different than any meeting with Santa Claus.
What observations by you, or others around you at the time, gave you the indication that it was real?
Mind you, I have been to "healing services" where the people being healed jump up and run around claiming that all pain is gone. Later, maybe even a few days, they are in pain again. Seems like an emotive response to me at the time of the service...ie placebo effect. So again I ask; What gave you the indication that your experience was real, rather than an emotional experience?
For us, it is too late because we have verified the character of God to our own belief and reconciled our human wisdom as subservient to this fact.
Verified in what way?
To your own belief? Does this mean that God follows your concept of Him or that you now believe in all that He is?
It is not that I don't care about the depth of your belief. It is that I don't see how you can distinguish the validity of your beliefs from those of an ardent New Ager or a Buddist Monk...or Osama Bin Ladin(sp?).

If faith is "...evidence of things hoped for and the substance of things not seen..." from what material do you build your faith?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 132 by Phat, posted 03-04-2005 10:14 AM Phat has not replied

  
Trump won 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1240 days)
Posts: 1928
Joined: 01-12-2004


Message 134 of 134 (190167)
03-05-2005 11:13 AM
Reply to: Message 131 by LinearAq
03-04-2005 9:41 AM


Re: Who's?
I used my mind to interpret that scripture.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by LinearAq, posted 03-04-2005 9:41 AM LinearAq has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024