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Author Topic:   The ulitmate sin: blasphemy against the Holy Ghost
Gilgamesh
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 134 (172010)
12-28-2004 10:46 PM


Matthew:
12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
(Words of JC)
Christians cite this as the only example of an unforgivable sin.
Can a Christian please explain how does someone commit "blasphemy against the Holy Ghost"?
I invite as many views as possible.

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by coffee_addict, posted 12-28-2004 10:57 PM Gilgamesh has replied
 Message 5 by sidelined, posted 12-28-2004 11:08 PM Gilgamesh has replied
 Message 26 by Hangdawg13, posted 12-31-2004 2:55 PM Gilgamesh has not replied
 Message 58 by Zachariah, posted 01-04-2005 1:00 AM Gilgamesh has replied
 Message 84 by Abshalom, posted 01-05-2005 5:32 PM Gilgamesh has replied
 Message 120 by PecosGeorge, posted 02-21-2005 4:08 PM Gilgamesh has not replied
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Adminnemooseus
Administrator
Posts: 3974
Joined: 09-26-2002


Message 2 of 134 (172013)
12-28-2004 10:53 PM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
coffee_addict
Member (Idle past 477 days)
Posts: 3645
From: Indianapolis, IN
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 3 of 134 (172018)
12-28-2004 10:57 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Gilgamesh
12-28-2004 10:46 PM


Killing pigeons?
Added by edit.
Or was it the doves?
This message has been edited by Lam, 12-28-2004 22:58 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Gilgamesh, posted 12-28-2004 10:46 PM Gilgamesh has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by Gilgamesh, posted 12-28-2004 11:04 PM coffee_addict has not replied

  
Gilgamesh
Inactive Member


Message 4 of 134 (172022)
12-28-2004 11:04 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by coffee_addict
12-28-2004 10:57 PM


Lam wrote:
Killing pigeons?
Added by edit.
Or was it the doves?
Hee hee.
(Bugger off Lam, I'm trying to be serious!)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by coffee_addict, posted 12-28-2004 10:57 PM coffee_addict has not replied

  
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5908 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 5 of 134 (172024)
12-28-2004 11:08 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Gilgamesh
12-28-2004 10:46 PM


Gilgamesh
Can a Christian please explain how does someone commit "blasphemy against the Holy Ghost"?
Hang on,isn't that the one who got Mary pregnant while she was married to someone else? I always thought that was an odd thing for THG to do? Methinks this would be a good way to justify an illegitimate child myself.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Gilgamesh, posted 12-28-2004 10:46 PM Gilgamesh has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by Gilgamesh, posted 12-28-2004 11:14 PM sidelined has not replied
 Message 11 by berberry, posted 12-29-2004 12:56 AM sidelined has not replied

  
Gilgamesh
Inactive Member


Message 6 of 134 (172025)
12-28-2004 11:14 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by sidelined
12-28-2004 11:08 PM


Hello: Earth to Christians? Are you out there?
Sidelined
Hang on,isn't that the one who got Mary pregnant while she was married to someone else? I always thought that was an odd thing for THG to do? Methinks this would be a good way to justify an illegitimate child myself.
Yea, that's the guy/thing that I am talking about.
How does someone blaspheme against him/it? Call him/it a fornicator?
(I would like to get a serious answer to this question from somebody, pleeeaaase!)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by sidelined, posted 12-28-2004 11:08 PM sidelined has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by jar, posted 12-28-2004 11:52 PM Gilgamesh has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 7 of 134 (172028)
12-28-2004 11:52 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Gilgamesh
12-28-2004 11:14 PM


Re: Hello: Earth to Christians? Are you out there?
Hard to imagine a way, isn't it?
I always saw it as an inside joke. Who said Jesus didn't have a sense of humor?
It goes back to what I've been saying. It's simple.
Love GOD, Love others as you love yourself.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Gilgamesh, posted 12-28-2004 11:14 PM Gilgamesh has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by Gilgamesh, posted 12-29-2004 12:14 AM jar has replied

  
PerfectDeath
Inactive Member


Message 8 of 134 (172031)
12-29-2004 12:05 AM


who's the Holy ghost... God? Because if so, then for all those times you said "God Damn" you will not be forgiven
i'm screwed
This message has been edited by AdminPhat, 03-03-2005 05:19 AM

  
Gilgamesh
Inactive Member


Message 9 of 134 (172033)
12-29-2004 12:14 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by jar
12-28-2004 11:52 PM


Re: Hello: Earth to Christians? Are you out there?
Jar
Hard to imagine a way, isn't it?
I always saw it as an inside joke. Who said Jesus didn't have a sense of humor?
You are a fascinating individual, Jar.
Seriously though, how do fundies define it? Falling by the way after receiving the Holy Ghost? Abusing gifts of the spirit? Merely profaning the name of the the H-G?
This is a very serious accusation by JC, and I suspect the fundies must take it very seriously. For all my study and reading, I haven't researched how they define it.
I might do an internet search....

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by jar, posted 12-28-2004 11:52 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by Gilgamesh, posted 12-29-2004 12:30 AM Gilgamesh has not replied
 Message 12 by jar, posted 12-29-2004 1:53 AM Gilgamesh has not replied

  
Gilgamesh
Inactive Member


Message 10 of 134 (172034)
12-29-2004 12:30 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by Gilgamesh
12-29-2004 12:14 AM


If you want something done, you have to you it yourself!
The scribes who accused Jesus were guilty of blaspheming the Holy Spirit because they defied the truth. They treated his miracles with something worse than indifference; they blasphemously attributed them to Satan. They were like those condemned by Isaiah the prophet (5:20): "Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil; who substitute darkness for light and light for darkness; who substitute bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!" Philo thus commented that those who blaspheme against the divine and ascribe the origin of evil to God and not man can expect no forgiveness. By accusing Jesus of being in league with Satan when he was really acting through the power of the Holy Spirit, they had blasphemed the Spirit, hardening their hearts against the Spirit's influence.
Matthew 12:31 - Blasphemy Against The Holy Spirit
Apparently the scribes referred to in Matt. 12:22-37, Mark 3:22-30, Luke 11:14-26 blasphemed against the Holy Ghost.
By my reading of that above link, any ex-born again Christian is thereotically blaspheming against the Holy Ghost. It then somewhat contradicts JC by saying that such an individual is not incapable of forgiveness, it's more of a casef the individual never being capable of accepting forgiveness again.
I suspect this tenet was developed as a way for Christians to write-off and demphasise those who have fallen by the way.
Comments?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Gilgamesh, posted 12-29-2004 12:14 AM Gilgamesh has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by purpledawn, posted 12-29-2004 8:24 AM Gilgamesh has not replied
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berberry
Inactive Member


Message 11 of 134 (172037)
12-29-2004 12:56 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by sidelined
12-28-2004 11:08 PM


sidelined observes:
quote:
Hang on,isn't that the one who got Mary pregnant while she was married to someone else? I always thought that was an odd thing for THG to do?
So did I. Doesn't this lovely little Bible story make the Holy Ghost sound an awful lot like an incubus?

Keep America Safe AND Free!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by sidelined, posted 12-28-2004 11:08 PM sidelined has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 12 of 134 (172039)
12-29-2004 1:53 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by Gilgamesh
12-29-2004 12:14 AM


Re: Hello: Earth to Christians? Are you out there?
Seriously though, how do fundies define it?
Most Fundamentalists seem to define it as needed to fit their immediate needs and in their exclusive favor. LOL
his is a very serious accusation by JC, and I suspect the fundies must take it very seriously.
They certainly take it seriously. I tend to take it as I believe Jesus said it.
Once agin, as I've said so often, quotemining doesn't work. When you pull those two verses out of context you loose the whole meaning of the dialogue.
Can you and I step back once again and look at the larger work, the whole incident?
Jesus was going about dealing with the people. He was teaching and healing, what at least seemed miraculous and certainly noteworth. He was successful enough that he drew the attention of the ORGANIZATION, the existing Franchise Holders.
The passages that you quoted are part of his exchange with those Franchise Holders. He is basicly telling them that the rules have changed. He's laughing at them and that is the one thing they could neither understand or tolerate.
He goes on:
33: Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.
34: O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.
35: A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.
36: But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
37: For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.
38: Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee.
39: But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:
Once again, this is a judgement of those who profess. It's Jesus saying, just like your Momma, "Actions speak louder than words".
Also, did you get my email about your nephew?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 13 of 134 (172065)
12-29-2004 8:24 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by Gilgamesh
12-29-2004 12:30 AM


Re: If you want something done, you have to you it yourself!
Aside from quoting the verses you mentioned, churches I've been to never got any deeper than the quote. To me blaspheme has always been an ill defined word:
Strong's
Na'ats - Hebrew
1. to spurn, contemn, despise, abhor
a. (Qal) to spurn, contemn
b. (Piel)
1. to spurn (reject in a scornful way)
2. to cause to contemn (treat with contempt)
c. (Hiphil) to spurn
d. (Hithpolel) to be contemned
Blasphemeo - Greek
1. to speak reproachfully, rail at, revile, calumniate, blaspheme
2. to be evil spoken of, reviled, railed at
Webster's
Reproach
to accuse of and blame for a fault
1. shame, disgrace, or blame
2. a blaming or an expression of blame; rebuke
Calumniate
to spread false and harmful statements about; slander
Blaspheme
1. to speak irreverently or profanely of or to (God or or sacred things)
2. to curse or revile
Blasphemy
1. words or action showing disrespect or scorn for God or anything held sacred
2. any irreverent or disrespectful remark or action
The ancient meanings seem geared towards false statements (slander) and extremely negative feelings (abhor, despise etc..)
IMO, the verses you shared speak of slander. Falsely attributing the actions of Jesus to evil. Since his actions were directed by the HG, they were really calling the HG evil.
"By the prince of demons he is driving out demons."
quote:
By my reading of that above link, any ex-born again Christian is thereotically blaspheming against the Holy Ghost. It then somewhat contradicts JC by saying that such an individual is not incapable of forgiveness, it's more of a casef the individual never being capable of accepting forgiveness again.
By "ex" I assume you mean the person no longer believes in the tenets of Christianity or to the extreme of not believing in God.
From the definitions above, IMO disbelieving is not blasphemy?
Would a former Christian speak against the Church, God or the HG?
Is speaking against religion, speaking against the HG?
Definitely a gray area!

A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Gilgamesh, posted 12-29-2004 12:30 AM Gilgamesh has not replied

  
umliak
Inactive Member


Message 14 of 134 (172130)
12-29-2004 4:14 PM


Nice topic. I've been thinking about the same passages this week.

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 15 of 134 (172171)
12-29-2004 8:49 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Gilgamesh
12-29-2004 12:30 AM


Re: If you want something done, you have to you it yourself!
By my reading of that above link, any ex-born again Christian is thereotically blaspheming against the Holy Ghost.
I think you're still missing the key point, who it was Jesus was speaking to. Remember, he was speaking to the then Heads of the Church. He was speaking to the very pillars of his own religion, Judaism. Jesus was a Jew.
It's not the ex-born again Christians that I believe are the targets of the charge of Blasphemy against the Holy Ghost, but religious leaders. It is not an atheist, or a non-believer who could commit such an act. They are simply incapable of it.
Rather it is the very leaders of the Chrurch, Jew, Christian, Muslim who pervert the very FAITH. Today it would be the Pat Robertsons, Jerry Falwells, the Jimmy Swaggarts, the Oral Roberts, the Jim Bakkers, the Gene Scotts, the folk at ICR and AIG, the Kent Hovinds, the Ron Wyatts, the Walt Browns (although the last three may simply be fools), that can Blaspheme Against the Holy Spirit. They do so by perverting the message of Christ, promoting intolerance, exclusion, by stealing money in the name of GOD. It's those supporting the Defence of Marriage Act. It's the Muslim Clerics fomenting disorder and the Jews doing the same.
It is those modern Pharisees that Jesus would so charge.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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