If prayers go unanswered....?

I'm not sure I understand. Why does it depend on what is being prayed for.If a believer proclaimed that their prayers were answered, regardless of the prayer request, an atheist would not declare Divine intervention. Our atheist would, out of necessity to their belief (or lack thereof), find another explanation, any other explanation. The most common one used is mere chance, or luck.OTOH, if a believer did not receive an answer to their prayer request, then our atheist friend would use that result as proof of the futility of prayer and encourage our believer to stop waisting his time.So as I stated in the previous post, with this spin our atheist thinks he can never be wrong about the absence of God. You assume that the only way in which God could or would make His presence known is through the media in some kind of global photo op. Atheist will never understand that God does not operate that way. (At least not in recent times)

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My religion consists of a humble admiration of the illimitable superior spirit who reveals himself in the slight details we are able to perceive with our frail and feeble mind. ---Albert Einstein

"...I'm not sure I understand. Why does it depend on what is being prayed for. If a believer proclaimed that their prayers were answered, regardless of the prayer request, an atheist would not declare Divine intervention. Our atheist would, out of necessity to their belief (or lack thereof), find another explanation, any other explanation. The most common one used is mere chance, or luck..."People claim that UFO's, Bigfoot, and any number of supernatural occurrences exist. I am sure we can come up with a couple of examples neither of us thinks are real. Clearly their belief does not convince you. So, when people claim that their prayers are answered, yes atheists are likely to doubt it. But again, show me a late term, stage three cancer remission, and I would hardly call that a coincidence.Now, let me turn this around for a moment... Do you believe the prayers of Hindus, Theist Buddhists, and Muslims are answered? If so, who do you believe is answering them? If not, what do you think would explain their believing that their God's answered them?"...You assume that the only way in which God could or would make His presence known is through the media in some kind of global photo op. Atheist will never understand that God does not operate that way...So, fist you say that atheists refuse to acknowledge that some coincidences are simply to uncanny not to be divinely inspired, but when I ask for example, you say that God doesn't work that way... So which is it, are atheists refusing to acknowledge the divine, or is the divine not acting in a way they can acknowledge?"...God does not operate that way... (At least not in recent times)"Yeah, that's true of a lot of Gods. Zeus and Thor and Apollo are laying low these days too. In fact, in pretty much every religion the Gods used to be pretty active. Wooing mortal women, slaying mythical beasts, doling out fire, etc. In the OT God is constantly getting involved in the affairs of men, lot's of showy miracles too... In the era of video cameras, instant communications and the internet, about the best he can conjure up anymore is a face on a Mexican billboard...Citizzzen

Another way to put this is that the believer can never be right, and therefore, isn't.I mean, if you think that explaining occurances with the most likely explanations, instead of leaping to conclusions about invisible, all-powerful deities isn't a rational course of action, then why don't you just come out and say so, and we'll have that discussion? Why would you prefer that, given an occurance, we make up whatever makes us feel good instead of try to suss out what actually happened?

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But any concept can be shown to be vague if it is parsed sufficiently fine. Using that technique, then it would not be possible to draw inferences on anything. Bill Clinton showed how effective this can be when he said, ?It depends on what the meaning of the word 'is' is.?

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OK, then, please define what it means for people to "respect God" such that you are reasonably sure that the definition you use applies to the "vast majority" of believers.

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But that's the point. There have been large intercessory prayer studies that show no appreciable effect.

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So, that must mean that it is quite possible that God is letting some people die (or perhaps even causing them to die) just so he can avoid detection.Your last message referred to statistical anomolies in small studies not making any difference.

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Shraff, I already adressed those points, you simply repeated yourself in message #68.

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You didn't answer most of them at all. You ignored almost all of the questions I asked, which is why I had to repeat them in message #68....and in several messages before that.I have quite thoroughly addressed your points, mike, why won't you address mine?The only reason I have asked for your reply again is because you continue to post similar ramblings to those at the begining of this thread, as if they had not already been addressed, and you hadn't already dropped out of the discussion.

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I feel I have answered these questions as best I can

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You didn't answer the questions at all.However, if you feel like this is your best, then so be it.

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but that nothing will satisfy save a visit from Yahweh.

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However, once again, I must correct you on this point.I certainly do not need a visit from God to accept that prayer has a discernable, real effect upon nature.I don't even need a visit from god to accept that your particular clims of answered prayers are true.I have very clearly listed the entirely and completely reasonable bits of information that I need to even begin entertaining the notion, yet you resist providing even one small portion of this information.Unfortunately, you have chosen for me to remain in an unknowing, ignorant state regarding your particular claims. That has been your choice all along, so DO NOT BLAME ME because I have no basis upon which to evaluate your claims.You have never given me one.This message has been edited by schrafinator, 04-06-2005 07:00 AM

This is an unqualified subjective answer.
There is no objective proof that prayer works or doesn't work.What I do receive when the answer is no, is why.
The other thing I noticed, and this is all subjective, is that the more I abide in the Lord, and pray according to his will, the more my prayers are answered yes. It's all about faith.Jesus said we could move mountains with our faith. How many here have stood in front of a mountain and tried to move it? The thoughts that run through your mind at that moment, is the battle of faith inside of us. For I believe if we truely believed with all our hearts, that mountain would indeed move. My faith is not strong enough to move that mountain. That is an honest statement.However, I have faith that God will provide certain things in my life, and he never let's me down, when my faith is 100%.

OK, so you say that the net outcome of prayer is, indeed discernable from random chance.Let's see your detailed records of all of your specific oucomes prayed for and the hit/miss rate which shows the statistical analysis.You say you don't have such a thing?Then you are asking people to just take your word for it. You might be accurately recounting the events and the rate of hits, but then again, the greater liklihood is that you are highly biased to credit prayer for all the hits, and you are also highly likely to define your hits as hits after the fact.

More faith = more "yes" answers to prayer?Who's faith? The person who is doing the praying?Then does this mean that those who don't receive a "yes" answer to their prayer, were lacking in faith?Faith in what precisely?
That God exists?
That Jesus is the Son of God?
That God will do what you are asking?Did Jesus have faith? Did He need faith?

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If faith is "...evidence of things hoped for and the substance of things not seen..." from what material do you build your faith?

Well thanks and Hello. If certain events MUST happen...its sounds alot like predetermination, and I thought that free will was what it was all about.Jerry Falwell is... I don't live too far from Lynchburg, VA and sure Jerry Falwell is no Pope, but don't think that there aren't alot of very fervent followers throughout the southeastern states...VA is the 'buckle' of the bible belt. So don't belittle Falwell's influence or authority (not to be read as me being a Falwell fan!) because lots of people love this guy and think he's right on target.As for the starving african child...what are we praying for exaclty? Are we praying that the child's suffering ends? If thats the case, your prayer is answered if the child starves to death. Or are we praying that the child gets enough food to be able to grow up big and strong. Or pray for them to avoid AIDS, and civil wars? Or do we pray for rain to stop the drought, so that crops will grow, so that people will be fed? Or do we pray for philanthropic nations halfway around the world to be generous enough to provide for those in need? After 12 years Terri has passed, and all I can see that it raised the awareness of is the need for living wills, and the intrusiveness of our federal government. Tell the TV evangelists in TBN that people shouldn't pray for what they want. That's pretty much all they do. And if what does happen is within God;s will...then that does not speak too highly of God's will. So you have a prayer and don't understand God's answer...so you pray for understanding. And if you still don't understand...you pray for understanding some more? So by this point, maybe your original prayer wasn't answered, and now your second prayer to understand the outcome of the first prayer is unanswered. I would think that eventually, you might lose some faith, if you keep talking to God and it begins to seem like you're only talking to yourself. I'd say I'm agnostic at best, and am just wondering/asking to see what others think about these things. People always ask for things via prayer. The format usually follows somethnig like this (or at least from my church going experience) You start off being thankful...then you ask for something you want...then get all thankful again. Then you sing some hymns. So I think that alot of people out there praying are definitely hoping for an answer to a very specific, sincere, selfless prayer.

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It's not selling out if nobody's buying.

When I went to church, most often the organized prayers would be a combination of your list. As I discribed in another post, there was typically a format something like this....Be very thankful (thank you God for the lovely weather and this chance to gather together in worship)...ask for something specific...(whats-his-name is in the hospital and we want him to get better and come back to church)...be thankful and humble (all glory to God, thank you God, in Jesus' name).Prayers that request something.(anything that you ask for)
Prayers that are praise/thanksgiving.
Prayers that are conversational.That's a base list.

well, the format of prayers will definitely vary from sect to sect and church to church. I have no idea of which church you attended (but if you're from just North of Peterspatch it was probably Presbyterian), and so I assume you're lumping prayers asking for guidance in with Prayers that request something.There is also a difference between prayers that are part of a programmed liturgy and those that are individual in character and ongoing. Would you agree with that?

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

If you tell someone something that is extremely relative to what they are experiencing in life at that particular moment, and they confirm and say yes, isn't that proof enough?When I pray for people, sometimes, I get specific things to say to them. I try my best to do it in an encouraging way, without the need for to many details, unless the person feels like telling me. Yes, I have, and that is the reason why I do not fall for to many things. I am very aware of how a concept could be brought about, and I do not want to go around praising something that just isn't there.An example would be: at my church there was a baptism, and with three separate cameras, there were "orbs" in the pictures. Everyone got so excited, and thought there were angelic orbs floating about. I however did not fall pray to this. I did some investagating, and discovered the real cause of the orbs, and had to break the news to them. It was a difficult situation, but I am a realist, to the best of my abilities. It wasn't the theme, it was him speaking prophetically. There was no mention of mud, or being stuck in the mud the week before either, or ever. He is not a person to feel that way. I did examine that myself, to help me understand where the dream came from.Just like you, I have a hard time believing this stuff sometimes. I get amazed, and constantly look for a reason not to believe. Shame on me, I know, but it is my human nature, which I am very aware of. To show that God does speak to us, that is the connection between dreams, visions, and prayers.
The silly stuff of the bible
Over one third of the bible is dreams and visions.
We actually have dream interpreters in our church. This is a whole other subject, one of which I am still learning about, and intend to take courses on. However, it is not necessary to take a course to interpret a dream from God. All you need is for God to tell you the meaning. Make it six, now. No we haven't discussed the topic. The prophetic words I am speaking of, have nothing to do with the topic anyway.
I have contact with between services, not every week, and when we do, it has nothing to do with what was said on Sunday.I have seen the spirit move in strange ways. In our church, I have seen the music go one for hours, and everyones face turn into the face of a laughing child. People were falg dancing, grabbing banners, and marching around the church. It was one of the craziest things I ever saw. I am a musician there, and was playing the music, and could not believe what we were playing. We were doing all percussion for about an hour, and it was a latin rythm, something that doesn't come easy to a bunch of "white folks" who never practiced it before(chuckle). To this day when we speak of that day, the same expression comes back to those who were there. Mere words cannot describe what happened that day.I know to you this sounds just nuts, but thats ok. Maybe one day if you get to experience it, you will relate to this. Easter had nothing to do with it.
I did not pray for this to happen. I was praying and asking God for words to give to the church. These are the thoughts that came to my head, in a small still voice.
The other 2 happened to be the same thing.
Sometimes, we can get the words, on the way to the church.
Yes, it's spooky, but awesome.

Yes, I do have such a thing, but it is not up for scrutiny.
As I have stated before it is all subjective. I am well aware of this.
It is also not my job to "prove to you" anything of the sort.
It is up to you to find out for yourself.Yes, I am asking you to take my word for it, for it is what I believe at this point in time.By the same token, you cannot go around telling everyone that it is proven that prayer does not work.

Faith is what separates us from the Angels. for they know who God is, they are there next to him. The bible says we will judge angels, and the angels will serve us.I believe that is because we have to find God through faith. It's one of the things that people complain about in here, committing to something that doesn't exist so that you can believe in it.Many people, including myself ask that question, "If there is a God, why doesn't he come down and show himself to me?"Well he did come down and show himself, and for me it was my ignorance of the bible, and all of what it means that kept me from finding out who God is.Yes, sin relates to bad things happening in our lives, but it is not exclusive. Sometimes we just have to go through tests, it is what makes us better.There are many promises that God makes in the bible, that he keeps, providing you keep your faith in him.When I pray to God, I really don't do much asking, I do more thanking for all that I have, and ask not what I need of myself, but what I can do for him, and others around me.
I also ask for forgivness, for all that I do wrong.
I do not hold God responsible for bad things that happen, but ask for clarification as to why it happened, for peace, and triumph over my fears.