If prayers go unanswered....?

Long time lurker...first post...hope I don't stink up the joint. Here we go then.I would imagine that every day there are millions of faithful people who pray for a multitude of reasons, some very specific and some not so. I was thinking more along the lines of current events that may inspire specific, and therefore very personal and possibly emotional prayers. The events that came to mind include:1. The Iraq War: prayers for the safety of loved ones in harms way2. The Pope: very ill, thousands show up daily outside his hospital building to get a glimpse, and to pray for a recovery....and I would assume that Catholics everywhere are also thinking of him3. Jerry Falwell: Has fallen ill as well, and surely there are plenty of his followers and other christians that pray for his well being4. Teri Shiavo: Daily on the news we see poeple praying for her life and recovery, and surely there are people all over the U.S. that also have Teri in their prayersIf a soldier in Iraq dies, if beloved religious leaders fall ill and pass, and if a tragically ill individual who has captured a nation's attention should fail to recover and then also die....what of all the unaswered prayers that hoped for a different ending?So what happens, what is the outcome, when a sincere, highly emotional, and personal prayer, from a very faithful person goes unanswered? Is there a loss of faith? Do you justify these unanswered prayers by claiming that it was God's plan and we just can't grasp it?What is a faithful person do in the face of an unaswered prayer, or from a list like I presented above, from multitudes of unanswered prayers?

Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.AbE - Welcome to EVC! I hope you've enjoyed lurking around the back room, but I'm glad you've decided to mix with us in the front parlor.If you've been around a while you probably already know that I'm going to refer you to the links in my signature box for newbie help threads.This message has been edited by AdminAsgara, 03-30-2005 05:32 PM

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AdminAsgara Queen of the Universe

http://asgarasworld.bravepages.com http://perditionsgate.bravepages.com

This may sound selfish and strange, but it's because of society and their sentimental and confused position concerning what prayer actually is, but when Christ spoke of prayer, he spoke of personal prayer, Strange though it may seem, I find all of my serious personal prayers are answered, but when I pray for others, they don't seek the Kingdom of heaven first and then have things added to them. Those people don't believe in Christ, so how can they be healed. Can you feed a man bread if he doesn't believe he can open his mouth?All those things you mentioned, I don't even pray for. This shows a mis-understanding of how God works, according to the bible. He isn't some performing omni-monkey for every whim on the planet.I know what you're getting at, you think that all these prayers going un-answered = no God. The question is, if God is there, why are they going unanswered? Did he say he'd answer every problem? Did not he say that his very own disiples would be handed over and put to death? So have you understood?Christ didn't tell me to pray for an hungred babas, he said feed them. He didn't tell me to pray for wars, for they "must needs be", nor should I fret. Christ didn't tell me to ask for most of these things and I'm hard pressed as to why people of secularist nature assume that the big magic omni-being is some kind of prayer-junky we go to when we need anything.This message has been edited by mike the wiz, 03-30-2005 08:09 PM

It's 9-11 and the towers are burning:Christians that make it out alive are saved by God.
Christians that are killed are called by God to heaven, who works in mysterious ways.
Non Christians that make it out alive are saved by God, to show them God's power and mercy.
Non Christians that are killed die because they don't believe in God.See, simple, with the right Public Relations spin, God can't go wrong.If you pray and get what you asked for , God answered your prayer.
If you pray and it doesn't come, you were asking for the wrong thing.
If you don't pray, but get what you need, God id infinitely merciful, even to non-believers.
If you don't pray, and you don't get the things you need, it's your own fault for not praying.Therefore, prayer never fails.Citizzzen

That's a great question. It's related to the issue of why bad things happen.Maybe we can step through this again.Can we begin by agreeing that there cannot be good without evil?Let me start by refering to a post where I discussed this a few months ago. It can be found here.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Realize that the purpose of prayer is not to influence events or outcomes, but rather, to be a tool to help you accept whatever the outcome actually is.I mean, how could it be otherwise? Why would God change his plans just because you asked him to? If what you asked for was better than what was going to happen, why wouldn't God have made that happen already?

From a Muslim's perspective:Observing prayers five times a day fills the whole day with a spiritual lift. Prayers combine religion with life, so that the presence of God can be felt throughout the day. Prayer concludes the day with a spiritual feeling. Prayer builds up a strong moral foundation.

there's no loss of faith in believers simply due to confirmation bias: if a prayer is answered (or appears to have been answered), it reinforces the faith. If a prayer is not answered, it is simply ignored or put down to other reasons (being too greedy, having sinned, god has some other purpose, etc.)For the church, clergy, evangelists, et al, it's a win-win situation. when my prayers didn't get answered, I certainly often put it down to God's unfathomable plan.

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"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

I've heard this many times. Confirmation bias and post hoc reasoning.It's clever but not conclusive logically because there is no way to discern the difference. i.e. If God doesn't want you to have certain things, so you get an answer "no" or the answer is "he doesn't exist". (how can you tell which one? Answer; You can't tell which the answer is so you can't conclude that we are wrong and you are right, logically, you just can't do it).If you get an answer "yes" then it's just according to what probability and chance would allow according to a skeptic, because s/he is looking at this scientifically, and thereby she knows that a confirmation doesn't mean much in science but a falsification means a lot.So the real problem is that how can one conclude as to whether God exists on the basis of misses? How can we conclusively say that either he doesn't exist or that he is simply saying "no"?As for post-hoc reasoning, the cause is essentially singular. So that's wrong.If I ask for healing of cancer, and I get an ice-cream then that clearly illustrates my point; which is that prayer request are specific.If it was post hoc, then it would go like this;I was watching television and I asked God to give me a sign, and the television switched off.This IS post-hoc, because the cause wasn't really your prayer.However, if I ask Jesus to appear on my plate, and he does then I fail to see how that is not a specific request which is indeed a confirmed occurence and is not post-hoc.This message has been edited by mike the wiz, 03-31-2005 06:13 AM

Fair enough. Go with it dude. Personally I don't believe in any kind of god, and henceforth I do not pray. However, I don't do anytyhing bad to anyone, I keep to myself and stay out of trouble, and my morals seem to be basically ok. Whatever works for you.Live long and prosper mate.

it's because it's true. We all do it, in different aspects of our lives, now and then. I tend to delude myself that my football team is the best in the division. When they win, my belief grows. When they lose, it's down to a 'bad day', or 'financial worries'. If we're talking about a personal, identifiable deity (like the christian god) yes there is a way to discern the difference: a personal, identifiable deity will have some characteristics that define its behaviour; if a refusal to answer a prayer (or turning down a prayer) negates any of these characteristics, we can conclude that said deity does not exist. If, on the other hand, the answer to the prayer is in line with these characteristics and the probability of it happenning by other means is very low, we can add weight to the hypothesis that said deity exists.So, if I pray for a million pounds and it doesn't happen, I can account for the miss by means of it being a greedy, materialistic request, so the refusal doesn't discredit the hypothesis of an all-loving, all-powerful god existing. If I pray for a terminally-ill baby to get cured and it doesn't happen, there 's no justification why an all-loving, all-powerful god would turn that down or ignore it. Therefore the prayer's refusal (or non-answer) is an indication that this god doesn't exist. like I said above, if his saying "no" negates his nature, we can conclude that he doesn't exist.** edited for spelling **This message has been edited by Legend, 03-31-2005 07:42 AM

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"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

Where does the bible say that God is all-loving? Where does it make out that God will always heal a person? Infact, this is exactly my point about society's idea of God. Where does it say that God is all-loving? Does he love sin and wickedness? What about the flood?I think this is a transgression of the second Commandment. Making God to fit your(society) own image, (society is guilty).Now if you pray for an ill baby and doesn't get healed, then what about what the NT ACTUALLY SAYS about prayer?"IF it is according TO GOD'S will, then it shall be added unto you."So then, you say that if God doesn't heal a baby, then God doesn't exist, but that's on your own terms, and not according to the character of God in the bible. It is so typical to simply say "an all-powerful, and all-loving God would such and such......." I mean, that's a classical flaw in societies idea about the God of the bible, that he is some omni-monkey that should do what you say he should do.So then, if a baby dies, are you considering that it is God's will if it is not healed? Are you looking at it from God's perspective, or your own?I apreciate the rest of your post about confirmation bias. I'm not saying you're wrong, but I think it's too easy to simply say there is no God if he doesn't answer prayer.Also, look at the things mentioned in post one. I bet you found out about those things because of TV or radio. Wouldn't you find it odd, if you were God and people were praying about natural disasters that are not even in their lives? You see, I suppose I could pray that no more supernovae happen in the haemaroid cluster in a galaxy far away, but then wouldn't God say, "why does that concern you"?Infact, these prayers for global events only happen because we have made things like Tv and radio, but in the bible days, prayer involved your life and maybe extended to people in your village etc...so I think it's a mis-understanding of what prayer actually is.Praying for an ill baby is certainly a prayer I am guilty of praying, because of hearing something on the news.This message has been edited by mike the wiz, 03-31-2005 08:14 AM

MTW With a stipulation like that there is no way to tell whether something was actually affected by prayer or not. There is no need to pray since god is going to do what he wants anyway.Why is there such a fuss then about praying as it makes no difference to the outcome. One may as well shake beads and dance for all the effect available.If a child is terminally ill then it must also be the will of god and who are we to intervene?

I was careful enough to say that it would not be God's intention to heal the child, which is different from it being God's intention that the child has a disease. Christ cast out illness, of whoever he came across. Illness and disease has been here because of the fall. You might not have noticed but God didn't create the concrete jungle you inhabit, because in the beginning it was good. Did you also notice that Christ didn't feed everyone on earth, or heal everyone and that he fed the five thousand but not all the other hungry people? Does this mean he doesn't exist if he feeds the five thousand but not the rest of the hungry? This is why looking at prayer scientifically is a waste of time.Someone asked Christ, "if you will heal me" and he said, "I will".Did you notice that he raised Lazarus from death? But is Lazarus alive still? If Lazarus still died then was it the end of days for Lazarus when he eventually did die? What about an ill baby? Everyone dies. Now some people I have prayed for (with others), have been healed, because it what God's will that they be so.If it was up to me, babies would be healed in a lot bigger number, but that's not God's will, it mine/ours. It's our sentimental wish.Nevertheless, I doubt you're counting the ones that are healed, or looking for such instances of miraculous recovery are you?This message has been edited by mike the wiz, 03-31-2005 08:59 AM

here:"For God so loved the world that He gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life." (John 3:16)"In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the atoning sacrifice for our sins" (1Jn. 4.10). That derives from the above and also that he's done it numerous times before through Jesus. he doesn't love sin and wickedness, but what's that got to do with a terminally-ill baby ?!
He loves all mankind (see above) and that includes ill babies. Unless -of course- you're implying that there are sinful and wicked babies out there. the flood blatantly contradicts John 3:16 and 1Jn. 4.10, but that's for you to reconcile, not me :-)As far as I'm concerned, the O.T god is not the N.T god.

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"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."