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Author Topic:   Free will vs Omniscience
ringo
Member
Posts: 20022
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


(2)
Message 1411 of 1432 (897394)
09-04-2022 11:27 AM
Reply to: Message 1408 by Phat
09-02-2022 3:36 PM


Re: Sheep & Goat Behavior and Gods Foreknowledge
Phat writes:
In other words, we no longer even need God since we ourselves know what to do, right?
God Himself said so in Genesis. We have become like Him (Them). We have grown up.
Phat writes:
But what of men who call good evil and evil good?
Like you?
Phat writes:
Is it their own fault they got things twisted?
I guess so. They have access to critical thinking just like the rest of us. Whose fault is it if they don't use it?

"Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg.
What's going on? Where are all the friends I had?
It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong.
Give me back, give me back my Leningrad."
-- Leningrad Cowboys

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1408 by Phat, posted 09-02-2022 3:36 PM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1412 by dwise1, posted 09-04-2022 1:04 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5287
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 3.3


(1)
Message 1412 of 1432 (897398)
09-04-2022 1:04 PM
Reply to: Message 1411 by ringo
09-04-2022 11:27 AM


Re: Sheep & Goat Behavior and Gods Foreknowledge
God Himself said so in Genesis. We have become like Him (Them). We have grown up.
Which is why we can look at the atrocities that God commanded or did himself in the Old Testament and condemn them and him
as the atrocities and atrocious monster that they so clearly are.
IOW, we have grown up and we know better now.
 
Of course God was created by Man and given the characteristics and faults of Man -- ever notice how convenient it is that God always hates the same people that his followers hate?
That horrible early god then got set in cement through writing, so that we whose sense of morality has matured since then can look back in horror of how we used to be.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1411 by ringo, posted 09-04-2022 11:27 AM ringo has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1418 by Phat, posted 09-06-2022 2:29 PM dwise1 has replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 20022
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


(4)
Message 1413 of 1432 (897404)
09-04-2022 5:28 PM
Reply to: Message 1407 by Phat
09-02-2022 3:32 PM


Re: Sheep & Goat Behavior and Gods Foreknowledge
Phat writes:
You seem to think that if God were worth His salt, He would have eliminated any evil threats beforehand.
What could be more obvious? That's the standard we apply to humans, isn't it? We don't sell toys that are labelled, "May cause serious injury or death." We eliminate the evil threats beforehand.
Why should God be held to a lower standard?
Phat writes:
This would not allow for free will.
That's just a bullshit excuse to blame ourselves for the bad things while giving God the credit for the good things.
Phat writes:
You all want to be free to do whatever it is that you want to do.
God or no God, we ARE free to do whatever we want and we ARE responsible for the consequences.
Phat writes:
Apologists would argue that you were thus lawless, not wanting to be under any law or standard.
And they're wrong, as usual. We're under our own law and our own standard.
Phat writes:
You may counter by saying that you yourselves make your own standard. In which case God is not responsible if you in fact get yourselves in a jam.
Who's asking Him to be responsible? By all means, tell Him to stay the Hell away.

"Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg.
What's going on? Where are all the friends I had?
It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong.
Give me back, give me back my Leningrad."
-- Leningrad Cowboys

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1407 by Phat, posted 09-02-2022 3:32 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1414 by Phat, posted 09-06-2022 2:13 PM ringo has replied
 Message 1416 by Phat, posted 09-06-2022 2:19 PM ringo has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 16368
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1414 of 1432 (897493)
09-06-2022 2:13 PM
Reply to: Message 1413 by ringo
09-04-2022 5:28 PM


Re: Sheep & Goat Behavior and Gods Foreknowledge
ringo writes:
That's the standard we apply to humans, isn't it? We don't sell toys that are labeled, "May cause serious injury or death." We eliminate the evil threats beforehand.

Why should God be held to a lower standard?
You unbelievers (or non-believers) still don't get it. Of course humans should use common sense and not be mindless zombies awaiting scriptural confirmation for a given challenge. You, however, don't even know how to invent a God. You have concluded that you don't need one or that science proves there are none.
A Creator of all seen and unseen, as depicted in scripture, is not simply some magic hand from the sky that wrote everything. God interacts and has interacted with humans since day one (for humans, anyway) Sez me.
ringo writes:
Who's asking Him to be responsible? By all means, tell Him to stay the Hell away.
You say that now, but what if you were unable to be able to change your mind? Would you be happy with that?

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1413 by ringo, posted 09-04-2022 5:28 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1415 by Percy, posted 09-06-2022 2:15 PM Phat has replied
 Message 1419 by nwr, posted 09-06-2022 3:07 PM Phat has not replied
 Message 1420 by AZPaul3, posted 09-06-2022 4:29 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 1425 by ringo, posted 09-07-2022 12:50 PM Phat has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 21180
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 1415 of 1432 (897494)
09-06-2022 2:15 PM
Reply to: Message 1414 by Phat
09-06-2022 2:13 PM


Re: Sheep & Goat Behavior and Gods Foreknowledge
Please get some help.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1414 by Phat, posted 09-06-2022 2:13 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1417 by Phat, posted 09-06-2022 2:24 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 16368
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1416 of 1432 (897495)
09-06-2022 2:19 PM
Reply to: Message 1413 by ringo
09-04-2022 5:28 PM


Re: Sheep & Goat Behavior and Gods Foreknowledge
ringo writes:
That's just a bullshit excuse to blame ourselves for the bad things while giving God the credit for the good things.
You would rather blame Him (or Conservative Followers) for the bad things and give you and your fellow humans credit for the good things! In fact, most liberal humanists blame and will blame the followers for the coming bad things which I predict will happen.
I don't know why I even try with you. He made you a skeptic, so go give away spare change and live your life as best as you can. I'll try my best to emulate your behavior in that way while being careful not to poison my mind with your conclusions regarding God's existence!

Edited by Phat, : added sentence


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1413 by ringo, posted 09-04-2022 5:28 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1426 by ringo, posted 09-07-2022 1:01 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 16368
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1417 of 1432 (897499)
09-06-2022 2:24 PM
Reply to: Message 1415 by Percy
09-06-2022 2:15 PM


Re: Sheep & Goat Behavior and Gods Foreknowledge
You seem to think im some mental case or that my diabetes is out of control. My sugars have been better in the last two months and as of this morning, are 116...within normal range. My A1C is dropping as we speak. Not sure what kind of help you think I need!
But thanks for caring. I would emulate that for any of you...even jar and Theodoric!

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1415 by Percy, posted 09-06-2022 2:15 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 16368
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1418 of 1432 (897500)
09-06-2022 2:29 PM
Reply to: Message 1412 by dwise1
09-04-2022 1:04 PM


Re: Sheep & Goat Behavior and Gods Foreknowledge
dwise1 writes:
This is why we can look at the atrocities that God commanded or did himself in the Old Testament and condemn them and him
as the atrocities and atrocious monster that they so clearly are. IOW, we have grown up and we know better now.
Tell that to Mr.Putin and the Russian "special military operation".
They collectively have no supernatural belief and it hardly makes them any better.
I hear they are now buying weapons from N.Korea and Iran.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1412 by dwise1, posted 09-04-2022 1:04 PM dwise1 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1421 by dwise1, posted 09-06-2022 7:01 PM Phat has not replied
 Message 1422 by Theodoric, posted 09-06-2022 9:26 PM Phat has not replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6115
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 1419 of 1432 (897502)
09-06-2022 3:07 PM
Reply to: Message 1414 by Phat
09-06-2022 2:13 PM


Re: Sheep & Goat Behavior and Gods Foreknowledge
You, however, don't even know how to invent a God.
I'll remind you that many unbelievers were once Christians. So yes, they do know how to invent a God. They have been there and done that.
The difference is that they now realize that this foolish.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1414 by Phat, posted 09-06-2022 2:13 PM Phat has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 7046
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 1420 of 1432 (897504)
09-06-2022 4:29 PM
Reply to: Message 1414 by Phat
09-06-2022 2:13 PM


Re: Sheep & Goat Behavior and Gods Foreknowledge
You, however, don't even know how to invent a God. You have concluded that you don't need one or that science proves there are none.
Oh, Phat, please.
We reached those conclusions because we do see how gods are invented, used, abused. We don't just sit in a room making up excuses to piss you off, Phat. There are real actual logical demonstrable reasons we reject the very idea of your gods.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1414 by Phat, posted 09-06-2022 2:13 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5287
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 1421 of 1432 (897507)
09-06-2022 7:01 PM
Reply to: Message 1418 by Phat
09-06-2022 2:29 PM


Re: Sheep & Goat Behavior and Gods Foreknowledge
What you just did is called Whataboutism, a form of "appeal to hyprocrisy" (Tu quoque ("You too")):
quote:
Whataboutism or whataboutery (as in "what about…?") denotes in a pejorative sense a procedure in which a critical question or argument is not answered or discussed, but retorted with a critical counter-question which expresses a counter-accusation. From a logical and argumentative point of view it is considered a variant of the Tu-quoque pattern (Latin 'you too', term for a counter-accusation), which is a subtype of the Ad-hominem argument.
The communication intent here is often to distract from the content of a topic (red herring). The goal may also be to question the justification for criticism, the legitimacy, integrity, and fairness of the critic, which can take on the character of discrediting the criticism, which may or may not be justified. Common accusations include double standards, and hypocrisy.
No matter how hard you try to divert our attention to other blood-soaked monsters like Putin, that does not make God as depicted in the Bible any less blood-soaked nor any less of a monster.
For some appreciation of the difference in scale between how monstrous God is compared to Putin, consider how as they learn ever more of the sheer volume of government documents, hundreds of which are very clearly marked as being highly classified (based on my 40 years of training and professional experience with handling classified, they are so very clearly marked that nobody could possibly miss it), that Trump has stolen, his Republican defenders immediately turn to "But what about Hillary's emails?!?!?!?!!" because a couple excerpts of classified info found their way onto her server from others plus none of it was marked as classified.
So trying to exonerate Trump for his flagrantly deliberate acts of massive stealing and mishandling of government documents by pointing out Hillary's email server -- be sure to note the vast difference in scale and in deliberate actions -- would be like your trying to exonerate the God of the Bible's long history of being a blood soaked monster by pointing out that Putin is also a bad guy. Nobody's going to buy that one!
They collectively have no supernatural belief and it hardly makes them any better.
Your information is decades out of date. Christianity has had a revival in Russia since the Soviet Union ended. Orthodoxy, of course, but fundamentalism has also established itself with many ties with American fundamentalist churches and organizations (such as the Institute for Creation Research). And Russia is presenting itself as being the defender of the white race, morality, and even Christianity (Orthodoxy, of course).
Moscow is back as the Third Rome, though with the label of Russian World, an Orthodox concept developed in the 1990's which exalts the primacy of Russian language and culture. Putin is using Russian World to promote the recreation of the Russian Empire. That includes making Ukraine completely Russian by destroying Ukrainian culture, identity, and language in order to replace them with Russian culture, identity, and language. Hardly indistinguishable from a religious crusade.
For that matter, Putin is himself a Christian, or at least was. He was baptized, though he did it in secret to keep his father for knowing about it. And despite Putin not now being seen as being very religious, many others in the Russian government are (I've seen Medvedev being presented as an example).
Time for you to get up to date.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1418 by Phat, posted 09-06-2022 2:29 PM Phat has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 7570
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 1422 of 1432 (897510)
09-06-2022 9:26 PM
Reply to: Message 1418 by Phat
09-06-2022 2:29 PM


Lies or just that stupid
Vlad the Destroyer and most Russians are Russian Orthodox. Vlad goes to church on most holy days and has a very close relationship with the Patriarch. He and the Russian people are christians.

Edited by Theodoric, : Typo


What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1418 by Phat, posted 09-06-2022 2:29 PM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1423 by AZPaul3, posted 09-06-2022 9:39 PM Theodoric has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 7046
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 1423 of 1432 (897511)
09-06-2022 9:39 PM
Reply to: Message 1422 by Theodoric
09-06-2022 9:26 PM


Re: Lies or just that stuopid
He and the Russian people are christians.
You telling my, like republicans, the russian people are orks, too?
I have no reason to do this other than the mood strikes me. No relation to any discussion past, present, future. **
[joke]
M R ducks.
M R not ducks.
O S M R. C M wings?
L I B! M R ducks.
[/joke]
Ok I need dinner.

Edited by AZPaul3, : **Apologies to admin


Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1422 by Theodoric, posted 09-06-2022 9:26 PM Theodoric has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1424 by Phat, posted 09-07-2022 12:14 PM AZPaul3 has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 16368
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1424 of 1432 (897524)
09-07-2022 12:14 PM
Reply to: Message 1423 by AZPaul3
09-06-2022 9:39 PM


Re: Lies or just that stuopid
You confuse me. Is that some sort of code that only anti-theistic liberals understand?
Add By Edit: OK I looked it up. now I understand this lame duck humor

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1423 by AZPaul3, posted 09-06-2022 9:39 PM AZPaul3 has not replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 20022
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 1425 of 1432 (897529)
09-07-2022 12:50 PM
Reply to: Message 1414 by Phat
09-06-2022 2:13 PM


Re: Sheep & Goat Behavior and Gods Foreknowledge
ringo writes:
You unbelievers (or non-believers) still don't get it. Of course humans should use common sense and not be mindless zombies awaiting scriptural confirmation for a given challenge.
That has nothing to do with what I said. I was asking why God shouldn't be held to the same standards we hold ourselves to.
Stop usung me as a launch pad for your rants and try to reply honestly.
Phat writes:
You, however, don't even know how to invent a God.
Sure we do. We watch you doing it every day.
Phat writes:
You have concluded that you don't need one...
Yup. We have also concluded that you don't HAVE one, whether you "need" one or not.
Phat writes:
... or that science proves there are none.
Stop lying. Nobody here has told you that.
Phat writes:
You say that now, but what if you were unable to be able to change your mind? Would you be happy with that?
That question doesn't make any sense.

"Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg.
What's going on? Where are all the friends I had?
It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong.
Give me back, give me back my Leningrad."
-- Leningrad Cowboys

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1414 by Phat, posted 09-06-2022 2:13 PM Phat has not replied

  
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