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Author | Topic: Free will vs Omniscience | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
jar Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Phat writes: And if the God you market never foreknowing damns anyone, all people will be saved who bother to answer the charge. You have upended my aura of exclusivity and special-ness that my Born Again experience gave me. You still refuse or are unable to understand even the basics. The God you and the Apologists market foreknowing CREATES people who will be damned regardless of what they do. And yes, Jesus says you need to stop thinking you are special or that you have any exclusivity. You are no more important than pond scum as far as God is concerned but by your behavior you can rise above that threshold.
Phat writes: Your insistence that God can never be known while we are alive and that He can safely be thrown away is a world view that critical thinking gave you. No Phat, it is a conclusion based on all of the evidence and I have gone over much of the evidence with you again and again just as so many others have gone over the evidence again and again. It is explicit in the fact that you have never been able to provide any evidence or reasoned argument in support of your position or any of the Apologist other than to claim it upends your aura of exclusivity and special-ness that your Born Again experience gave you. Edited by jar, : applin spallin
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Juvenissun writes:
Then explain HOW it is false and tell us what "the truth" is. Your interpretation to what Jesus says is FALSE."I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
And you never explain how that's bad thing. Jesus did it. He required his disciples to do it. He told the rich young ruler to do it. The Roman Church did it. What makes you exempt? He never seems phased when I complain that his philosophy would empty my closet of anything I held back for myself."I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
You're fond of talking about "human nature". ...you claim to be a Christian yet are an advocate for dismantling the club. Do you think it started yesterday? I don't. I think it started with the first humans, and though it has evolved over the millennia, it still boils down to survival of the individual versus survival of the species. We want both but we can't always have both. Jesus came to teach the Pharisees, et al. to think more of society and less of themselves. Do you think "human nature" has changed just because you call yourselves "Christians"? I don't think so. I think all of us, including you, need to learn the same lessons that Jesus tried to teach the Pharisees. Isn't it ironic that you claim to be "in communion" with Jesus and yet you deny His teachings."I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Juvenissun writes:
I don't know if jar is speaking to you, so I'll give you one: Talking snake. It's just silly to think it was an actual talking snake. jar writes:
I challenge you to give just ONE such "stuff". The Bible (and there is no such thing as The Bible) says lots of silly, contradictory and fantasy stuff."I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
The God you and the Apologists market foreknowing CREATES people who will be damned regardless of what they do. What other kind of Deity do you want to market? One who does not know what jar will decide until jar decides it? Did God know which plant was wheat and which was tares?Did God know which were sheep and which were goats? If not how could God separate them? What type of God do you imagine? One Who sees us as on the same level of pond scum and foot fungus? One Who is clueless about what will happen next on the timeline? Here is one apologetic explanation. Feel free to mock it.
If Jesus is God, why did He not know the hour of His return? Note that the scripture says that God knows the Day and the Hour. This would be considered as foreknowledge. So puny man (pond scum) get up and point a finger at God and tell Him He is evil. And see where that bit of human independence will get you."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
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jar Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Once again, you can offer no evidence or reasoned argument or even address the issue but instead try to palm the pea, con the rubes, misdirect attention; all the hallmarks of the Medicine man, carny hustler and Apologist.
Address the issue Phat. The God you and the Apologists market foreknowingly CREATES people who will be damned regardless of what they do.
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Your problem is that you judge the God that we market without ever asking God for the answer. You simply continue to question. And the God that you market is conveniently out of reach of your questions. Who palms the pea?
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
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jar Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
LOL
Phat writes: Your problem is that you judge the God that we market without ever asking God for the answer. You simply continue to question. And the God that you market is conveniently out of reach of your questions. Who palms the pea? That is so stupid Phat. I do not need to ask God about the God you and the Apologists create and market, I can and have asked you. And you never provide either evidence or reasoned argument to support the god you create and market. If the salesman can't sell the product it really can't have much value.
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AnswersInGenitals Member (Idle past 179 days) Posts: 673 Joined: |
One of the silliest fables in the bible is the whole story of the Fall. If God didn’t want Adam or Eve to eat the Fruit Of the Tree Of Knowledge (FOTOK), why did he put the tree in the garden of eden? God created the heaven and the earth, so he supposedly knew where all the continents and lands were. So why didn’t he put the tree in Bangkok, or Brisbane, or Brooklyn? In fact, why have a tree at all? Maybe god had an irrepressible urge to put it in the garden of eden, i.e.., he actually had no free will to choose where he put the damned tree. Or maybe Adam and Eve had a good case for entrapment (but, unfortunately, god had not yet created lawyers). This is no trivial point, since all misery and evil proceeds from that trees placement!
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Juvenissun Member (Idle past 1336 days) Posts: 332 Joined: |
Those who cry Lord, Lord, may or may not be believers.
That is a True statement. I can see you like to argue. Please follow basic logic when you do that. Otherwise, it becomes a False prejudice.
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Juvenissun Member (Idle past 1336 days) Posts: 332 Joined: |
One of the silliest fables in the bible is the whole story of the Fall. If God didn’t want Adam or Eve to eat the Fruit Of the Tree Of Knowledge (FOTOK), why did he put the tree in the garden of eden? On the exact opposite, what God does in that case is absolute essential to Christianity. Nothing in Christianity is more significant and important than that. God let Adam and Eve to make the choice. That is the whole point. They did not make that mistaken choice for a very very long time. And they will not make that mistake until they were tempted to do so. Every bit of details in this very very precise and critical descriptions are vitally important in Christianity. There will be no Christianity without that decision which appeared "silly" to you.
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Juvenissun Member (Idle past 1336 days) Posts: 332 Joined: |
Address the issue Phat. The God you and the Apologists market foreknowingly CREATES people who will be damned regardless of what they do. I assume you do not know what "damned" means. That makes your issue meaningless. If you mistakenly think damned people will "suffer", you are wrong. Many of them won't. So many of they are not damned (according to your definition, even you never said what that is).
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Juvenissun Member (Idle past 1336 days) Posts: 332 Joined: |
I don't know if jar is speaking to you, so I'll give you one: Talking snake. It's just silly to think it was an actual talking snake. I think jar is afraid of talking to me. I keep picking on him fatally. There ARE angelic beings described in the Bible. You may wonder how do those angels look like? Yes, one of them look like a snake at that particular time (it may look differently at other time, they are powerful beings). So it is not surprised at all that the angelic snake can talk. Sorry, this is not a science forum. Otherwise, I won't say the above. But, take it a little bit back, do you believe some human can communicate with snakes (and many other animals) today? That is a way of "talk".
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jar Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
In Genesis 2&3 there is no Fall, rather Adam and Eve become more like God. In the story it is the Serpent that tells the truth and the God that lies or at best tells half truths and made up stuff.
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