Faith writes:
Demon possession probably IS going up with the decline of Christianity and especially the influx of eastern pagan religions into America since the seventies.
Is that a threat? Because I'm not scared.
It was meant as important information that might be of use if anyone took it seriously.
If not and you mean it as a fact... can you show me how it's true so we can do something about it?
How I wish I could. I learned about it from the New Testament itself, and learned to consider it still ongoing in the sorts of situations I listed. Proving it? Not to someone with a rationalist mindset that has never been challenged. Satan's plan for our age is to pretend he and his demons don't exist and the "rationalists" have bought it. You'd have to believe what other people have said about it and you've learned to discount a priori anything anyone says about such things, so the only way you might come to believe in them is if you experienced some kind of demonic phenomena yourself. And even then you'd be prone to explain it to yourself as something produced by your own mind. I've said a lot about my own experiences of such things so I'm pretty sure saying anything more along those lines wouldn't convince you.
If you can't show how it's true... why do you even think that it's true?
I believe the Bible for starters, believe it is the revelation of reality and truth, and the NT in particular describes demons and their relationship to Jesus who came to liberate us from them. If you dismiss the Bible, of course, you've cut yourself off from one major avenue of evidence. I also had personal experience of demonic things, which I believe I've described here a number of times, and I was privileged to hear about many similar experiences from other people. Recounting all that is the best I can do to persuade you and if that doesn't do it I guess you're stuck in your own evidence-killing prejudices.
It's simply unrecognized because "rational" humanity denies it.
I don't deny it.
Sure you do. Any time someone tries to tell you about it you discount their testimony.
I simply don't see anything that actually shows it's happening. With a complete lack of a reason to accept it... I do not accept it.
I was where you are before I became a Christian. I saw no reason to believe in God or anything supernatural. Coming to believe wasn't a rational thing, I was simply persuaded by other peoples' experiences, in my case the testimony of some Hindu gurus, that the supernatural was real, and from there I read book after book about things supernatural and religious until I knew Christianity was the truth. As for persuading anyone else, I try by describing my own testimony to these things, but in the end I can't do anything. God will have to persuade you personally, as He did me, or He'll leave you unpersuaded.
You can be the first to offer me the truth, though. Please show me a demon possession or what you think is the most-reliable-way to convince me that they actually do exist.
I've done a lot along those lines over the years at EvC. I don't have any new methods. I could point to Charlie Manson or Jeffrey Dahmer, but even there I just suspect it because of the demonic nature of their crimes and can't prove it, and why would you see demon possession in them when you've been convinced otherwise?
It's probably the cause of most mental illnesses
This is not true.
I don't know a lot about mental illness compared to a professional (like Larni).
But I do know a lot about mental illness compared to the average population in western society.
And I know more than enough to know that this is false.
Gosh you're just overflowing with ironclad evidence there aren't you? Perhaps I should adjust what I said to apply to the stranger psychoses. I probably know as much about mental illness as Larni and certainly more than you, but I'll mention one case I knew very well, my own schizophrenic brother, who heard voices and saw "signs" everywhere supposedly telling him what to do. I tried to be a help to him in the years before he died and became afraid of him because of his strange ideas. Sometimes psychotics get "commands" to murder people and that sort of thing (he told my other brother he felt he was supposed to kill one of our uncles when he was visiting us; the uncle decided to get a motel room), sometimes to kill themselves, or their children perhaps. Often they think its' God talking to them. I may extrapolate from these extremes to less dangerous ideation, but there is plenty of bizarre ideation in many mental illnesses that I think should be considered to be demon-inspired. There may also be plenty of life experiences that contribute to the problems, of course, but they provide the "permission" for demonic intervention to someone who understands how those things work.
it's certainly the cause of bizarre serial murders and many sexual aberrations
Again, no, it's not.
But you can convince me otherwise, if you can show that what you say is true. Just present your best-scenario that shows the truth of your words. I'll read it, I promise. We can talk about it.
Yeah, sure. Sorry, been down that road. Take it or leave it.
and it's also very likely that the great world tyrants were possessed.
Wrong again.
You're awfully sure of yourself for someone who has zip evidence for your assertions. You want me to prove mine but give none for yours. Typical.
Thinking that mental illness has a significant influence from demons is exactly the same thing as thinking that getting sick has a significant influence from demons.
They are both not true.
What a fount of unsupported wisdom you are.
There is one big difference though:
About getting sick: Most people understand that germs and bacteria exist and how they can infect us and cause us to get sick.
About mental illness: Most people do not understand that brains are not all exactly the same or that some people can have experiences different from others or that some people react to the same experiences differently. This failure to understand these concepts lead to a failure to understand the mundane explanations for mental illness - ie "How Brains Function."
People who were ignorant about germs and bacteria causing sickness are exactly the same as people who are ignorant about how brain functionality causes mental illness.
Just for your information. Before I was a Christian or believed in anything supernatural at all I knew a lot about psychology and I absolutely despised brain theory, imputing mental things to physical causes, which was the tack of behaviorism / behavior therapy for instance. I recognized the mind as the seat of personality in those days, and considered the brain as merely a physical vessel whose interactions with the mind were confined mostly to brain damage sorts of influences. Otherwise brain has nothing to do with how the mind works. It's just a vehicle. Then when I became a Christian I KNEW that mind and body are separate, the body the vehicle for the mind or soul. But the point is there is no need to invoke anything physical like the brain to explain psychological states. Zip.
I can show you germs and bacteria.
I can show you brain functionality and how it causes mental illness.
Can you show me anything about demon possession?
Can you show me anything about demon existence?
Talk of demons only does one thing - wastes the time that could be spent focusing on the real issue that can actually be corrected or mitigated with proper care.
Just like talk of demons only wastes time in treating people getting sick.
Funny, I'd say that focusing on physical causes wastes the important time needed to understand the supernatural nature of some phenomena. Not physical disease particularly, but mental aberrations of all kinds. Physical components do not at all eliminate spiritual causes.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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