The location of the Tree of Life

John 1:
12Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God 13children born not of natural descent,[a] nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God. It just sucks when you have to keep repeating yourself, has nothing to do with being a witness. That is your judgmental opinion, only. Thats ridiculus, anyone here, reading this forum has internet. There are an abundant free internet bibles, that all you have to do is cut and paste the verse, and you get the result.
Here's one that I use, BibleGateway.com: A searchable online Bible in over 150 versions and 50 languages. Ok, I will try again.
I did not fully understand what my spirit was, until it was born.
To me the soul, is our mind, our collective conscience, the sum of our experiences, and our inherent traits (or sin).
Our spirit is that of which Gods wants us to be. We are born of the same spirit. The fruit of the spirit is love.
Do you know what unconditional love is? Thats the love I am talking about. Anything that does not fit that description, then it is not of the spirit.
Paul reconizes the struggle between soul and spirit. The soul keeps doing what the spirit doesn't want you to do.
The Holy Spirit is part of your sub-conscience, or at least that is a way to describe it. It may not actually be a part of it, but it acts like it sometimes. It convicts us of when we do things wrong. It also lets us know when we do things right.
There are gifts associated with the spirit.
It is the breath of God living in us.
If we live by the spirit, then there is no need to preach, people will see God/Jesus in us, and then ask us the questions. God will grant us the permission to answer those questions if we ask him.It is hard to live by the spirit in this forum, but I try. I do not always express myself the best. I tried preaching to people, and it wasn't as effective, as when I started to just love them. I could say that I love you, but its hard to show on the internet, all I can say is that I do spend a considerable amount of time discussing with you, because I care.As you seek God more, and follow his ways, you spirit increases, and your soul decreases. Talking about who is running your body. We can live by the flesh, or by the spirit. It's our choice. Doing things for the spirit can be difficult as you will go against what your body/flesh/soul wants. But then you get blessed.
I just try the best I can, I am far from perfect, and far from perfectly understanding it. But I do see all this in action. I was saved only 1.5 years ago, and have been testing what I just wrote everyday since. It would seem to hold water.

I suggested that you quote your verses as a courtesy to our friends, not because they are incapable of looking them up. In fact, most people probably don't bother to look them up, so your presentation is much stronger if it's all right there. -------------Your explanation of "spirit", in your own words, is actually much better than when you quoted somebody else's words. I could find one or two things to nitpick, but I'm not going to do that.I can appreciate your difficulty in expressing yourself. (For me, the words flow easily, but I don't know what language they're in when they come out at your end. ) If you can develop a little more confidence in your communication abilities, I won't have to use the pliers to drag straight answers out of you. So, now that we have a sort of working definition of "spirit", can we finally get to my original question? What is there in your own definition of "spirit" that suggests that children have a dead spirit or an unborn spirit? I'm asking.

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People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.

A personal relationship with God.Probably just like Adam got sent out of the garden, where he once walked with God freely, he now has to look for God.In this link, you can see how important it was in the OT to seek God with you heart mind and soul:
BibleGateway - Keyword Search: soulWhere as adam did not have to originally.
Most of the OT is explaining how men seek God, and his will. All things they would not have to do if Adam and Eve didn't screw up. It's all their fault
Or maybe we were designed that way.Thank you for your kind words. I try not to give my take on it (spirit) and instead refer to biblical references, in fear of communicating the wrong thing, or message. I also will post the scriptures if I refer to them.

One of the many interpretations of the meanig of Genesis and Adam and Eve is that God actually set up. You see, until you know right from wrong, you are not responsible. Just like children, they do not understand what 'HOT', and 'you will get burnt', until they indeed get burnt.Look at what would happen (metaphysically of course), if man did not eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Mankind would still be just the same as the beasts. According to one of the Jewish interpretations, God set man up, so man could learn the difference between right and wrong,and therefore be able to choose to live right, and therefore CHOOSE to be closer to God.

Maybe now we're getting somewhere. I think you've agreed that Adam and Eve can be taken metaphrically? (And that has nothing to do with whether or not they literally existed.)I see Adam as a metaphor for all mankind.When he was born/created, God breathed His Spirit into Adam. Similarly, when a baby is born, God breathes His Spirit into it.Adam had a "personal relationship" with God, not just an intellectual one. Similarly, children have an instinctive relationship with God.When Adam and Eve ate the fruit, they became conscious of the difference between good and evil. Similarly, as children learn more about their world, they become conscious of the consequences of their actions.God "punished" Adam and Eve by cutting them off from eternal life. Similarly, as humans mature, they cut themselves off from many of the joys of life by worrying about the consequences.Jesus said that we must be like little children to enter heaven. He was simply continuing the metaphor.To enter heaven, we need to go "back to the garden". We need to "undo" the consciousness-raising that came from eating the fruit. We need to become more like children.The idea that children are born with "dead souls" completely negates the metaphor. Unless God breathes His Spirit into every human at birth, Genesis 2 and 3 becomes just another story about a guy who ate an apple.

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People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.

Yes, and you're interpreting them in the most literal sense possible in order to force the conclusion. Yes, the lord has allowed it to happen. But he hasn't done evil.Do you actually think the Lord is both good and evil? http://www.geocities.com/...uvia007/goodincontrasttoevil.gif Actually, it's a good example if you can actually read the words "JESUS" in-between the black lines.Like I said before, I've never said that God cannot see the people. I've said that God cannot see into their hearts. Moving the goal posts? uh...no.This is what I said before... You are reading more into my own words than I've actually said.Now, let's look at this passage you brought up earlier... Then what about a passage like this one, "For God will bring every deed into judgment, including every hidden thing, whether it is good or evil." I've already explained exactly how good could perceive evil only in contrast to good -- and I've already explained how the passages you keep quoting could be interpreted in this manner.Futhermore, if God is both good and evil, then why are there passages which indicate the following: or here... Actually, here's a buttload to ponder... Surely one of these passages could have said, "The Lord is evil..." or something to that effect. If I sat down and went through the entire Scriptures I could copy and paste a GARGANTUAN pile of Scripture verses which testify that the Lord is good.Since I don't feel like copying nad pasting 1/3 of the Scriptures here at EvC, at the very least I will demonstrate a few passages passages here which show how God uses evil to bring about greater good. Furthermore, if God is both evil and good, then why would various Scriptures say the following? If Amos is saying to hate evil, is he not also saying to hate God -- because God is apparently also evil by your definition?But don't the Scriptures say to love God -- how can one be commanded to both love and hate God at the same time?Malachi 2:17 talks about the day of judgment in such terms: According to Isaiah we read: If God is both good and evil, then why would Isaiah warn so strenuously about calling evil good and calling good evil? By your definition, statements like this apparently make very little sense.Finally, according to the Christian Scriptures I read... ...and here I read something particularly enlightening from my own Christian perspective... Verses like these come to mind as well... Now that I think of it, isn't this passage actually quoting Proverbs 25: 21-22?*sigh*I'm not interested in copying and pasting reams upon reams of Scripture verses. I'm interested in what you think and how you can explain these things in your own words.I feel that whenever there are passages which appear to contradict each other in regards to God being good, or when a passage implies that both God and satan (or man in the case of Pharaoh) are doing the exact same thing, people tend to read this as representing a tremendous struggle of wills between good and evil.As such, if this is accurate, when evil flares up an immediate struggle ensues on a spiritual level. Both sides may take losses, including God's side. However, God will be able to either stop, transform, or else redirect the evil so as to bring about the maximum potential for good possible. All's that you've shown is that you don't agree with it. The part about it being erroneous is for God to decide. Sure, let's go through the rest of it.However, you're also refusing to get involved in the idea of free-will in connection with sin -- and the whole concept of whether man even has a free-will or not. Please address these questions too while you're busy copying and pasting all the Scriptural passages from KJV that you can find.As I said to Ifen, making a choice doesn't seem so much about making a choice, but rather about selecting which pre-set facet of life one will experience in the future. Certainly a choice still exists, but the final destination is certainly limited to a finte set of possibilities which were already predetermined by God.Things like this come to my mind when I think of the passages of Scriptures which talk about Pharaoh's heart being hardened. The Scriptures describe Pharoah's stubbornness in three different ways.Sometimes, such as in Exodus 8:15, it says that Pharaoh "hardened his heart" -- implying that Pharoah hardened his own heart.However, sometimes, such as in Exodus 10:1, it says that God "hardened his heart" -- implying that God did it to Pharaoh whether Pharaoh agreed or not.Yet oddly back in Exodus 7:13, it says that "Pharaoh's heart became hard" -- implying in this instance that Pharoah's heart hardened notwithstanding any involvment from God or Pharoah himself (or perhaps hardening via the conflicting wills pressed against it: God v. Pharaoh).It seems to me that this is consistent with the Israelite view: that all of history was an act of God. Beyond that, the writers did not appear to make a clear distinction on the matter of who exactly caused what -- although I think that it applies to what I said previously: In this sense, choosing is not so much about making a choice but rather selecting which facet of experience one will enter into.By rejecting God's will, it seems as though Pharaoh's heart was hardened. In other words, if Pharoah resisted God, he would have no choice but to have his heart hardened by his rejection of God's will.In this sense, Pharaoh still had a choice up until he chose to resist God -- but since he selected the future which involved him battling God, it was inevitable that his heart would become hard. God resisting Pharaoh's resistence led to Pharaoh's final destination -- and once he made that choice, there was, in my opinion, no turning back from it.Edit: by the way, are you into Kabbalah? I ask this because some of your ideas seem more Kabbalistic than specifically Judaic.For example, Mashiach himself is referred to as "the holy snake," as alluded to by the phenomenon that the numerical value of Mashiach (358) is the same as that of the word for "snake" (nachash).Likewise, in the Zohar it is told that when the holy snake, Mashiach, will kill the evil snake (overcome the fear of insanity), he will thereby merit to marry the Divine princess, to unite with the origin of the souls of Israel and so to bring redemption to the world.Just curious.This message has been edited by Mr. Ex Nihilo, 06-21-2005 03:40 PMThis message has been edited by Mr. Ex Nihilo, 06-21-2005 03:44 PMThis message has been edited by Mr. Ex Nihilo, 06-21-2005 10:40 PMThis message has been edited by Mr. Ex Nihilo, 06-26-2005 06:41 PM

You have got to be kidding. Are there really people who don't see "JESUS" there? I have to really squint to see any black lines. (Of course, the same negative-space experiment can be done using any word.)

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People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.

Many people have a hard time seeing it the first time they it try to make out words with the letters. It works better on a pure white background to be honest.Please also note that I've done a very simplified example. If one adds the "sprouting of of evil" along various non-symetrical paths, the word JESUS becomes more difficult to see.http://www.geocities.com/...via007/goodincontrasttoevil3.gif Yes, and your point is?I was making an anology that God can see evil only in contrast to good -- and to this extent the negative-space example worked. You could do the same exact thing with any word you like, such as SATAN, BOOKSHELF, TARGET, or CINDERELLA. But if you're concentrating on the word JESUS, then I think you're missing the point of what I'm trying to explain: I think God sees evil only in contrast to good -- that evil is the absense of God.Edit: Besides that, unfortunately, according to many people here, seeing God in nature is a very complicated thing.Apparently most people see the negative space message of "JESUS" more like this...http://www.geocities.com/...uvia007/negativespacemessage.gifEdit: spelling. edited img size to fix page width - The QueenThis message has been edited by Mr. Ex Nihilo, 06-21-2005 07:45 PMThis message has been edited by Mr. Ex Nihilo, 06-21-2005 07:48 PMThis message has been edited by AdminAsgara, 06-21-2005 11:14 PMThis message has been edited by Mr. Ex Nihilo, 06-26-2005 06:43 PM

Did you think you could hide "JESUS" by putting it upside down? It's just as obvious as in the first example. (sdrawkcaB, forwards, upside down - all the same to me. ) I have a higher opinion of God than that.

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People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.

But I'm not trying to hide the JESUS name -- I'm just trying to show you what I'm talking about -- that God sees evil in contrast to good. I'm also trying to show that there's a lot of other factors that can confound people's views of God. Do you actually believe in God?Edit: Let me clarify this last question. Do you actually believe in a personal God that talks with you and listens to what you have to say?I'm not trying to convert you. I'm just trying to get a fix on your own view of God to understand your point better. When I speak, I'm speaking from my own Judeo-Christian background -- and my posts reflect this background. When I listen to you, you sound kind of like a Deist to me. I'm not saying that's a bad thing. I'm just noting this because if you are a Deist, then obviously you and I have different opinions about the nature of God.When you make a statement like, "I have a higher opinion of God than that." and then drop out of the conversantion, I find it quite an inane and rather useless statement. Of course you believe your opinion of God is "higher" than mine -- just as I think my opinion of God is "higher" than yours. But I don't try to rub your face in it like a dog having his face rubbed in his own shit.Since this thread is limited to 300 posts, could you at least elaborate a bit more on "why" you think you have a "higher opinion" of God than me?I'm willing to listen and discuss what you think without judging you or trying to change your mind. But when you make statements like these little annoying quips (and then add one of these to make it all "warm and fuzzy" ), I'm left with a feeling that I'm talking to someone who doesn't really care to carry on an in-depth conversation.This message has been edited by Mr. Ex Nihilo, 06-21-2005 09:30 PM

I don't label myself. If that answer isn't "in depth" enough for you, well boo hoo. There are plenty more threads where this one came from, so you have plenty of time to get used to me in small doses. If you're worried about running out of posts, don't waste yours.

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People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.

Translation: Yes. I am a Deist. Translation: Well...I think I'm a Deist...but I don't really know for sure what I am. Might as well get in another dig while I'm at it. Translation: I enjoy wasting people's time with inane and useless comments. If you don't like what I'm saying, then that's too bad for you. Translation: I'm good enough, I'm smart enough, and gosh darn it, people LIKE me!

I think I said that way back in th thread. It can be taken metaphorically, or more accurately, an example for all mankind. That is why the story is so important to the bible, and understanding who God is.Now on to your description, I am sorry, by I am going to have to break it down sentence by sentence. I could debate this, but I will go with it so far. Well,not exactly, children wonder who God is, and are very open to the idea. Adam definatly knew who God was. But I will still go with it. Yes, I agree, and their innocents goes away. Here's where you start adding stuff to the story, something you warned me not to do.
Eternal life, and joys of life cannot be compared for purpose of this story you are producing.
If someone offered you 2 choices, joy of life, or eternal life, which one would you pick?
I see the similar story line you are creating, but it just doesn't compare. Jesus did not die for us to have joy, he died so that we might have eternal life, just by believing in him, BIG difference. Disagree, he wasn't continuing any metaphore, he just wants us to get back to the innocents of a child, so that we may believe. The amount God comes to us in life, is based on our faith. The devil attacks us our whole lifes, and puts things in our minds that hinder our faith. We need to revert back to a child like thinking, and innocents, "get rid of all the baggage" type thinking.Adam knew God. The only way we get to know God is by faith. Big difference.Do you think all children are born knowing God? Yes in a way, but we will never attain not knowing evil. We will always know evil. What we need to do is reconize the affects evil has on us, the who, what, why, were, and when of evil, so that we can reverse its affects on us. We can do this with the help of Jesus, and through forgivness. This is why I was mentioning forgiveness before.We can never revert back to the state in which adam and eve lived in.Can you see the difference of just knowing what evil is, and experiencing it?i.e. we hear a story on the news of murder, and we know its evil, but do we know how it feels?
i.e. a child gets smacked in her face by her alcoholic mother, for no reason. She now knows and feels evil, and then carries a scar with her for the rest of her life. She is affected by it forever. She now can live her life by oaths, exactly what evil does to us.
I don't think I have ever witnessed phsychology, or any twelve step program free people the way Jesus can. I am not saying the those things are bad either, we need all the help we can get. But peoples lives can be changed in a single bow of the knee towards heaven. But we still know evil. The breath of life eminates from God's spirit,but it is not the spirit of God living in you. We must seek it to fully know it.When I was a child I always wondered who God was, I did not know.

Yes, I agree. I do not label the story of the day man screwed up, but it was the day that man exorcised his freewill gift from God. It was going to happen, we know this is our nature.But understanding how we were before we used our freewill, helps to understand what life could be like, what life is going to be like afterwards, and how God wishes that we live.I think its an awesome gift. Most people I know are happy with it.

Okay, so we'll agree not to nitpick too much about the stuff we're already close togrther on? Mea culpa. I should not have used the term "eternal life", because that's not what I'm going after here. (Notice how the old dogmas can still creep in after all these years?)Since I am arguing for physical death and not spiritual death in Genesis 2 and 3, mentioning "eternal life" was a distraction, if not downright inaccurate.So, let's pretend that i just said "life". Joy of life, of course.Unfortunately, organized religion has a long history of pushing "eternal life" at the cost of misery in this life. Organized religion has always supported the oppressors, with the idea that the next life will be better.But Jesus said, "Do unto others as you would have others do unto you." He was talking about this life, not the next. I disagree, but there is no room here to get into that. Stay tuned, and we'll talk about that at a more appropriate time and place. To me, it seems pretty clear: if we accept the metaphor of child-like innicence in the garden, then when Jesus spoke about the children He was referring to the same child-like innocence.Exactly how do you know that "He wasn't continuing any metaphor"? In another thread, somebody has suggested that those who trumpet their "faith" the loudest actually have the weakest faith. I tend to agree. "The amount God comes to us in life" is based on what He decides, not on your faith or your conception of faith. Speak for yourself. The "devil" hasn't been near me in years. I guess he's too busy planting fundy dogma in the minds of people with weak faith. I hope that you too will grow out of that idea. Absolutely. I ask again: How can you look into a child's eyes and not know that? Agreed. It's a goal that can not be reached, just as a fruit can not be un-eaten. But the seeds of the fruit can be planted and produce new fruit. But that "breath" was the only thing that God breathed into Adam. If Adam had "the Spirit of God" in him, where else did it come from? (Chapter and verse? ) I disagree 100%.It's like trying to seek the wind. (There's that spirit=wind thing again. ) The harder you look for it, the less chance you have of "finding" it. You can only "find" it by standing still and accepting it.You have to empty yourself before you can be "filled". The eastern philosophies have the right idea on that. (I can almost feel Ifen patting me on the back right now. )

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People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.