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Author Topic:   All Knowing God proves problematic
Chessmaster
Junior Member (Idle past 4737 days)
Posts: 11
Joined: 03-15-2008


Message 1 of 82 (490724)
12-07-2008 6:24 PM


hi,
I was in a heated debate with some Christians recently, people who were preaching to me the whole idea of choice that we get. Being basic and upfront, I choose my destiny, I choose whether or not I accept god, love him and go to heaven. Or I choose evil and deny god, or just don't like him, and go to hell. However, with this argument, they seem to forget another thing they preach, that god is all knowing, he knows the future, there is nothing he doesn't know. It has been used in other examples, like he knew Satan would turn bad, yet he made him anyway. But it applies to this whole free-will and free choice thing.
They tell me, I have a choice, it's MY choice whether or not I go to hell.
Well, if he, or it, is really all knowing, then before he even decided I was to be born, he KNEW, or KNOWS, if I will go to hell or heaven. IN WHICH CASE, no matter what I do on this earth, how I act of behave, is not going to change the truth that he has foreseen. So, I may aswell not try and just enjoy my life and let it come naturally. I cannot influence my entry into heaven, for it has already been forseen whether I will enter or not, and his prediction, is of course perfect and cannot be wrong or changed.
Does this make sense? I just wonder if this has been dicussed before or if intelligent religious people realise this.

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by jaywill, posted 12-08-2008 7:39 AM Chessmaster has seen this message but not replied
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 Message 6 by straightree, posted 12-09-2008 6:47 PM Chessmaster has seen this message but not replied
 Message 7 by truthlover, posted 12-10-2008 10:50 PM Chessmaster has seen this message but not replied
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Chessmaster
Junior Member (Idle past 4737 days)
Posts: 11
Joined: 03-15-2008


Message 23 of 82 (491201)
12-12-2008 2:00 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Stile
12-12-2008 11:08 AM


Re: I don't get it
Stile writes:
What I'm saying is that everything we do, He already knows we were going to do. How does this prevent us from choosing what we want to do?
Or maybe this is a definition of Free Will problem?
If you're defining "Free Will" to be "Decisions that no one knows the outcome of". Then, well.. of course you can't have that along with omniscience, it would be a strict contradiction of terms.
However, if we define "Free Will" to be "Decisions where you can choose whatever you'd like"... what's the problem? Or how is this not Free Will?
You make a good point that may apparently outline a flaw in my argument, what you say is correct, however you are still feeling that we have free will. If something has already been decided finally, before you do anything, you have no choice or free will.
an example would be, suppose you apply for a job. And you getting the job depends on your performance at an interview. Now, by someone all knowing who can't possibly be wrong, the outcome has already been forseen, yet, you don't know it.
Now, the fact that I do know that it has already been forseen, could lead me not to try. Why? I can't change what has already happened.
Now, an argument against that might be, well, he has only foreseen it, so try your best, and you'll get it and that is what he would of forseen, because if you don't try, then he would of known that you weren't going to try after finding out he already knew, and thus, not get it. If that makes sense....
However, anyone who thinks that is right is failing to see that the choice has already been taken away from me. It's just like me trying to write a book that has already been written. It doesn't matter what I write, I will follow exactly what it says in the book already written.
The reason I pointed this whole argument out is that alot of people think god has a vested interest in their lives, and they are in a constant struggle with him and devil, and what to do, so many choices, decisions, sins to not do, etc. They pray, they get answers, but what they forget is that your life has already been played out. It does not matter what you do, you will, without knowing, follow the book that was written for you. For example, you might be struggling and wrestling with trying not to go to hell, Oh i'll do this so I can go to heaven, no. You can't change anything about your destiny, it has already been decided. gods all knowing ability is incompatiable with giving us choice and free will. I think on this particular point, the writers of him just gave him too much power that the whole idea of our free will to choose for ourselves is simply not possible and illogical.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Stile, posted 12-12-2008 11:08 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by Stile, posted 12-12-2008 2:30 PM Chessmaster has replied
 Message 25 by Stile, posted 12-12-2008 2:41 PM Chessmaster has seen this message but not replied

  
Chessmaster
Junior Member (Idle past 4737 days)
Posts: 11
Joined: 03-15-2008


Message 26 of 82 (491212)
12-12-2008 2:55 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by Stile
12-12-2008 2:30 PM


Re: I don't get it
OK,
again good points. And you are correct in what you say if we were living in ignornace. By that I mean of god and the bible.
Of course, I can still do whatever I like here on earth. Even though having now read the bible, I know god already knows everything that will happen until I die. But no your right, that doesn't infringe on my choice to, do this or do that.
I think your just looking at it a different way, i'm specifically looking at it in the way that god supposedly gives us the free will and choice to choose to be with him, or not for example.
What i'm saying is we know from the bible god already knows everything that will happen in the future, till our death, and even beyond. This knowledge, that the bible gives us, takes away our free will. In a way I guess I am saying that free will and choice is not possible with somebody who can already know what you will do before you do it. If they just make predictions, fine. But if somebody knows with 100% certainty your future, without you realising it, your free will and choice is gone. Again, it's just like writing a book that has already been written. You can't change it.
Then, once you tell that person, or your creation, as in the bible, that you know what they will do before they do it, they will surely realise they have no free will and choice, there is no need to pray, to struggle, for it has already been decided if they will enter heaven or not.
That point is difficult to grasp, you may think well they just have to carry on and try their best, as if they didn't know, then surely they will go to heaven, but if they stop and think about this point for a minute, and understand it, what is already done, is done. And their whole life, is already done. Another trap is well no, because if I think like this, then I really will just give up, and end up going to hell, as god forsaw me doing. But if you think like that, you still haven't grasped it, without knowing, you are trying to change what has been written in your book, or seen by god, and you can't do that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Stile, posted 12-12-2008 2:30 PM Stile has seen this message but not replied

  
Chessmaster
Junior Member (Idle past 4737 days)
Posts: 11
Joined: 03-15-2008


Message 29 of 82 (491222)
12-12-2008 3:40 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by Stile
12-12-2008 3:26 PM


Re: I don't get it
Stile writes:
If the concepts are mutually exclusive, you should easily be able to show me which decisions get restricted or removed if an omniscient God has perfect, 100% foreknowledge of all my actions.
1. No God exists.
-I can buy Cheerios for my breakfast cereal
-I can buy Shreddies for my breakfast cereal
-I can buy any kind of cereal I want for my breakfast
2. An omniscient God who has perfect, 100% foreknowledge of all my actions exists.
-I can buy Cheerios for my breakfast cereal
-I can buy Shreddies for my breakfast cereal
-I can buy any kind of cereal I want for my breakfast
Which options were removed?
Which options were restricted?
.
Stile, I know your argument is against Percy there, but you just said something which I feel gives me an opportunity to explain my point more clearly.
You are right, you can buy the cheerios or the shreddies.
But, it has already been known and decided what you will choose before you even choose it. You can pick either, and feel like your making the choice, but, in reality, or rather, according to the religious, you had to and did pick what was forseen. Thus, losing your free will. Of course you feel like you've made a choice, but again, i'm making a deeper point about god, you didn't have a choice, you couldn't pick what god had not seen.
This is why I agree with Percy basically, this all knowing god, and free will, is not possible.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Stile, posted 12-12-2008 3:26 PM Stile has seen this message but not replied

  
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