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Author Topic:   All Knowing God proves problematic
Agobot
Member (Idle past 5639 days)
Posts: 786
Joined: 12-16-2007


Message 44 of 82 (491398)
12-15-2008 3:44 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by Stile
12-15-2008 8:34 AM


Re: Fair Enough
Stile writes:
Agreed.
Just having a little fun with a thought exercise, that's all.
Of course, the nice thing letting God off the hook for all this torture and knowledge is that He doesn't exist.
This has only one inherent problem - you have to define what to "exist" means and you can't use science for that. Your only hope is philosophy but no matter how much stuff you read, there is no clear cut answer at all. But even if imagine there were such an explanation, you still have not provided information where god does not exist - in your house, at school, in Paris, in the obervable universe? If all of these, then yes - i agree, there is no evidence that there is god in any of those places. But did you really expect to find god somewhere - like in the street or at the mall or in the laboratory?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by Stile, posted 12-15-2008 8:34 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by Stile, posted 12-16-2008 7:28 AM Agobot has replied
 Message 49 by onifre, posted 12-17-2008 11:07 AM Agobot has not replied

  
Agobot
Member (Idle past 5639 days)
Posts: 786
Joined: 12-16-2007


Message 50 of 82 (491557)
12-17-2008 12:31 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by Stile
12-16-2008 7:28 AM


Re: No evidence in reality
Stile writes:
Exist
-to have real being whether material or spiritual
The part about the material existence if fundamentally wrong. There is no material existence, in the way the western world thinks. The whole universe is only wavefunctions, these are vectors in a linear space. The "substance" of these vectors is the same substance that thoughts are made of. There is only consciousness that we can describe with the word "exist". At this moment, there are at least 6 billion people living in delusion, believing in the physical reality. The only thing that you can consider real, is what i've just told you, that nothing is real. That's the real part, and of course consciousness. Just watch when this hits the textbooks all over the world in 20 or 30 years.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by Stile, posted 12-16-2008 7:28 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by Stile, posted 12-17-2008 1:06 PM Agobot has replied
 Message 60 by Taz, posted 12-21-2008 2:17 AM Agobot has replied

  
Agobot
Member (Idle past 5639 days)
Posts: 786
Joined: 12-16-2007


Message 52 of 82 (491565)
12-17-2008 1:16 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by Stile
12-17-2008 1:06 PM


Re: Ugh.
Maybe it's better that you aren't interested. if you ever want to find out more, you know where to start. wish you a nice day

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by Stile, posted 12-17-2008 1:06 PM Stile has seen this message but not replied

  
Agobot
Member (Idle past 5639 days)
Posts: 786
Joined: 12-16-2007


Message 54 of 82 (491597)
12-18-2008 4:14 AM
Reply to: Message 53 by caldron68
12-17-2008 7:46 PM


Re: a simple hand-wave
caldron68 writes:
Could, but then what kind of God do we end up with? If God is truly omniscient and has a personal plan just for you, then what does that say about the personal plan created for a man who dies in an automobile accident? Did God see a need for this man to die in a horrible accident? How about the infant that dies of SIDS? Does God meddle in the lives of some and then allow all others to just make their own choices or have the course of our lives changed by pure chance?
Since we are all one whole oneness, I believe if you are doing wrong and evil, it will come back to you(you are basically doing it to yourself). It may be even true that karma can spread to your offspring(I don't like this but i can't rule that one out). If you spread Love, give love to relatives and people, you'll be safe and you'll enjoy this experience we call life in a whole new way. You won't find this in a science (text)book, that's my belief, so take it for what it is.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by caldron68, posted 12-17-2008 7:46 PM caldron68 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by rueh, posted 12-18-2008 8:34 AM Agobot has replied

  
Agobot
Member (Idle past 5639 days)
Posts: 786
Joined: 12-16-2007


Message 56 of 82 (491610)
12-18-2008 10:52 AM
Reply to: Message 55 by rueh
12-18-2008 8:34 AM


Re: a simple hand-wave
rueh writes:
There are many examples that have happened to my family, friends and myself where it is clear that random acts of goodness and badness can occur to anyone at any time. Leading a altruistic lifestyle, may shield you from influences of evil people but it is no guarantee against them.
Hi rueh,
This was pure speculation on my part, it showed my belief and it's based on my subjective thinking. I am not even sure human logic is fully applicable to the intrinsic nature of this experience we collective call life. Michio Kaku says Max Planck said:
"Science cannot solve the ultimate mystery of nature. And it is because in the last analysis we ourselves are part of the mystery we are trying to solve."
To say that i am confused is an underestimation and i really have no idea to what extent bad karma can be handed down to generations and spread to other loved ones(if at all). My subjective and possibly flawed human logic tells me that since we are all one wholeness, children can be scapegoats of misdeeds of parents, but this can be wrong. Without at least a sketchy understanding of what consciousness really is(loosely referred to as "observer" in physics), there can be only guesses. Einstein seems to think that
"Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening the circle of understanding and compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty."
... but what good is his logic or any other scientist's logic on describing consciousness? Maybe we have to be good, love and respect each other, maybe this is what causes bad things to innocent people. If quantum physics could describe mathematically what an "observer" is, QM and the future theory of everything would move forward very quickly. But I think this is illusory, i don't think we can ever pin down mathematically consciousness, at least for as long as it remains an abstract concept, like dreams and thoughts.
But ultimately you are right, i don't know and no one does. It maybe that god(if there is - likely IMO) is evil, although this is unlikely, or we just don't understand what we are supposed to do. But if you strive for good, piece, love and compassion you can't go wrong, even if there is god and you didn't believe in him. I don't think we are here to pray to god, and this seems to be somewhat inline with Einstein's beliefs, although i don't agree with at least 1 aspect of his beliefs - I have no idea how consciousness can die(maybe it's old belief of his, that changed as he got older). My gut feeling tells me that if you do good deeds and spread love and unity, you'll be fine. Thats all i can help you with.
Edited by Agobot, : No reason given.
Edited by Agobot, : No reason given.
Edited by Agobot, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by rueh, posted 12-18-2008 8:34 AM rueh has not replied

  
Agobot
Member (Idle past 5639 days)
Posts: 786
Joined: 12-16-2007


Message 61 of 82 (491785)
12-21-2008 4:47 AM
Reply to: Message 60 by Taz
12-21-2008 2:17 AM


Re: No evidence in reality
Taz writes:
Composition fallacy.
It's not just the composition Taz. But have it your way - i don't want to dissuade you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by Taz, posted 12-21-2008 2:17 AM Taz has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by Percy, posted 12-21-2008 8:59 AM Agobot has replied

  
Agobot
Member (Idle past 5639 days)
Posts: 786
Joined: 12-16-2007


Message 63 of 82 (491803)
12-21-2008 9:34 AM
Reply to: Message 62 by Percy
12-21-2008 8:59 AM


Re: No evidence in reality
Percy writes:
When you claim that material reality at our own macro level must have the same qualities as material reality at the quantum level, you're committing the fallacy of composition.
And as someone else said, fields at the quantum level *are* material and real.
This was disproven more than 40 years ago by John S. Bell. His theorem states that no hidden variable could match the experiments in quantum mechanics. Nature is non-local.
Second, I find the statement about the quantum fields being real and "material" devoid of all meaning. It's true that fields are more fundamental than "partilces", but those are quantised fields, which only exhibit particle-like features under certain circumstances, but not in others(this is the disturbing part and the nightmare of the physicists). Some aspects of quantum field theory appear even more mind-boggling. One such feature is that, in quantum field theory, there necessarily must exist long-range correlations in any state, and even the vacuum. This was addressed by James Bell's theorem which is hailed as the most profound and important theorem of all physics.
If you are still holding on to hidden variables, incompleteness of QM and other fairytales, think about this -
What distance travels a photon emitted 5 billion years ago from Alpha Centauri that reaches the Earth from its frame of reference? And in what time? And why do you think the frame of reference of the photon should be invalid? Give it some thought.
Edited by Agobot, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by Percy, posted 12-21-2008 8:59 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by Percy, posted 12-21-2008 1:23 PM Agobot has replied

  
Agobot
Member (Idle past 5639 days)
Posts: 786
Joined: 12-16-2007


Message 65 of 82 (491818)
12-21-2008 2:06 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by Percy
12-21-2008 1:23 PM


Re: No evidence in reality
Percy writes:
I think you've misinterpreted what I meant by "material and real". I did not mean solid like a table top. I meant in the same way as anything else in our universe. But looking back through your posts, like Message 50, I see that you are using "material" when referring to objects of the macro world, so I'll stop using that word to describe the quantum world. I'll just say that quantum fields are as real as table tops. Quantum uncertainty is just as real as a stubbed toe.
The mistake that you're making *is* the fallacy of composition. You've concluded that the qualities of quantum fields which do not have the quality of solidity must be extended to the macro level of our perception without offering any justification.
But isn't this is a diversion from this thread's topic. I don't see the tie in.
No, i wasn't talking about solidity, and those 2 worlds are really one and the same, just seen through an interface that we call human body. I was talking about how physicists tried to pull the curtain on you with ambiguous terms like:
Nature is non-local
Space and Time are not fundamental
Shut up and calculate
QM is incomplete
The universe is based on the Holographic Principle
...all this just to steer the public away from the enormous philosophical implications of its findings. Maybe it's for a good reason - there may be mass hysteria, religion will start to dominate all life, people might lose interest in life,... I myself was on tranquilisers for a few days.
Percy writes:
Table tops, radio waves, and quantum fields are all material and real.
This was proven to be wrong by the Double slit experiment multiple times.
Did you figure out what distance the photon travelled from its point of reference?
PS. Yes, it's very offtopic, if you find the need to reply, you can do so in another thread. But if you are not in an absolute stable state of mind, don't even try to look into these matters.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by Percy, posted 12-21-2008 1:23 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by Percy, posted 12-21-2008 5:49 PM Agobot has not replied

  
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