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Author | Topic: Islam does not hate christianity | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Trump won  Suspended Member (Idle past 1494 days) Posts: 1928 Joined: |
Can you trust your own eyes?
-one word to describe me, spectacular yes
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1698 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
NOTICE: I am no longer responding to posts about the Palestine-Israel conflict. It became a battle about unprovable personal experience and feelings and I don't want to play that game. If somebody wants to try to collect the objective aspects of it in another thread maybe I'll join you.
quote: "Isa" is the legitimate Arabic equivalent of "Jesus", but "Allah" is not the Name of God. If it were ALWAYS used only in its generic or at least popular sense as "God" (which, as I understand it, is not linguistically or historically correct in any case) there would not be a problem, but when it is used as God's Name it is false. [Edit: He is not the same God in any case because he does not have the same character and attributes as the true God who reveals Himself in the Bible and nowhere else.] And of course they don't believe in Jesus as they believe wrong things about Jesus. This message has been edited by Faith, 02-27-2005 17:58 AM
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1698 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Oh yea...and it is okay to call God Dios in languages like Spanish but Allah is not the same as the Christian God, its different. That one is fun too. On this forum we speak English, in which language the generic word for God is "God." For an English-speaking Muslim to call God "Allah" instead of "God" is to use a name for God, NOT the generic as is so often claimed. [Edit: And again, the Muslim God is not the Biblical God because he does not have the same character and attributes as the Biblical God.] Time for you to concede something. LONG PAST time as a matter of fact. You should also concede that your personal experience does not amount to an argument as it is only the testimony of a witness in a case in which the other side has no representation. This message has been edited by Faith, 02-27-2005 18:26 AM
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1698 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
quote: Thank you VERY much. The nitpickers around here who pounce on every casual phrase and would "make a person an offender for a word" are getting to me.
quote: Excellent advice, and necessary in this place, that's for sure. I'm going through the posts one by one as I can get to them and am not ignoring the rest of your post, though since it is about Israel I don't know if I will answer it, as it's off topic and I said I was no longer answering those. However, since it is on the objective side of the issue I may get back to it.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1698 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
quote: See Morte's post on this. You are making an issue out of a mere exaggeration for effect --I shouldn't use the term "always" I admit, but your jumping on it is a red herring, a total waste of time. You are misrepresenting me by claiming I think Israel is blameless as I've said otherwise. I was unable to find the reference I thought I remembered about the girl. What I have found suggests a soldier got out of hand, was being held accountable for murder by the IDF, but was then freed because of a lying witness. A single soldier's misbehavior is not the fault of all Israel, especially when steps were taken to bring him to justice. When do the Palestinians bring their terrorists to justice at all by the way?
quote: That's an ad hominem, sir, which I thought was out of bounds on this site. Though I exaggerate for effect at times, and hope I can stop doing it, you are over the top with exaggerations and misrepresentations.
quote: I'm sure they HAVE gone too far in some circumstances. All I'm doing is answering the absurd TOTAL smear campaign against them that says they never do anything right, they are nothing but evil murderers without any redeeming moral qualities, there are no just reasons for one single thing they ever do. Their side is NOT heard in the media or from any of you except in the briefest and most unsympathetic way, while the Palestinian side is played up with discussions of the pathetic circumstances of each of the victims, all the while ASSUMING perfidious Israeli behavior without the slightest interest in the Israeli side of the story. Lots of denunciations, accusations, fingerpointing, emotional carrying on. How often do we see lingering reports on the experiences of the victims of the suicide bombers as we do the endless reports on the Palestinian victims? No, it's always the Palestinians are "oppressed" they are ALWAYS the victims, their atrocities are always justified by their suffering from "occupation." It's all a put-up and until this is recognized there will never be a way to find out where Israel may commit excesses. [edit: I did it again. READ "ALWAYS" TO MEAN THAT THIS IS THE HABITUAL TYPICAL GENERAL TREND AND DON'T TAKE IT LITERALLY FOR CRYING OUT LOUD.] Now I answered another one about the Israel-Palestine flap and I don't want to answer any more. This message has been edited by Faith, 02-27-2005 20:25 AM
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Jazzns Member (Idle past 4165 days) Posts: 2657 From: A Better America Joined: |
But you present all of this as if the Israelis were simply insane destroyers and I don't buy it. I am not asking you to buy it anymore. It is clear that you are very firm in your position. You can believe whatever you want to believe Faith. I am posting more for the dozens of other people who are reading this for them to judge who is right and who is wrong.
We're talking about an area that breeds terrorists whether your family is involved or not and you are giving me NO way to judge this situation. I would like to know A valid reason for destroying crops, breaking the Geneva convention by using civilians as human shields, and preventing children from getting an education. If there is one then the audience will listen. Go ahead and speculate.
They have REASONS for their actions. I never said that all their actions were baseless. I am contesting the your original black and white claim of an honorable Israli force versus a vicious marauding terrorist group of Palestinians. Lets remember:
Faith previously writes: All the attacks on Palestinian areas are against terrorists and are scrupulously well aimed at the terrorists in order to avoid harming civilians.... However, Israel is very careful about civilians. All the Israeli military actions are against terrorists and that helps Israel if the bad guys are eliminated, obviously. There is a Biblical Proverb about how one person's story sounds very reasonable until you hear the other side. Well there is no other side to your stories so there is no basis for judgment. Well, I'll even take speculation into consideration like I said above. Give me any good reason for why those things happened.
All I'm doing here is saying the mere actions of the Israelis do not prove anything about the rightness or wrongness of their actions given the situation that such actions are their dealing with terrorists in those areas. How do you figure this. If someone is caught red handed burning a house down there dosen't need to be a reason to make it wrong. It is wrong because it is wrong. Because it is condemned by the rest of the world.
Israel condemned by 114 countries It appears your family has suffered terribly but their suffering says nothing about why these things are happening. The reasons may not be about your family, but something else having to do with terrorist threats in the area, I don't know, but it is certainly about terrorist threats as that is why Israel does those things. If they're wrong in your family's case you can't prove it by the mere fact of their actions. Yea I can. When you repeatidly destroy an innocent peoples way of life it is wrong under every moral system I have ever heard of. It dosen't matter the reason. Sure tearing down olive trees might hypothetically remove the cover that militants use, but not everywhere. But burning crops, pulling up baby trees, etc. Those kinds of actions stand on their own. They are evil actions and no lofty political or military reasoning make them any more right.
And I don't know you personally so how can I believe you that your family is not somehow involved in the terrorism? You get all offended that I don't just trust you, but who in their right mind trusts a faceless person on a website? You never had to trust me. You can believe whatever you want. But when you make accusations in public it is considered rude when they are without base. You can consider my family terrorists all you want. It is not going to hurt me any. I am here because I hate hate. That is obviously not true for everyone else on this forum.
[qs]Unfortunately this is how the Palestinian side is often argued -- no facts, but a lot of feelings where there should be evidence.[qs]
Except for the links I provided that back up many of my claims. But of course, I forgot, correlating news sources is not real evidence. My bad. By the way, for a fun second-term drinking game, chug a beer every time you hear the phrase, "...contentious but futile protest vote by democrats." By the time Jeb Bush is elected president you will be so wasted you wont even notice the war in Syria. -- Jon Stewart, The Daily Show
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Jazzns Member (Idle past 4165 days) Posts: 2657 From: A Better America Joined: |
You are asking people to condemn the actions of the Israelis on the basis of hearsay and emotion and it is totally one-sided. Once again, ignoring the fact that I posted evidence for my "hearsay and emotion." You have yet to address these other than hand waving them away as biased.
Really, it would be far better if you left your family out of this altogether because it does nothing but bring emotion into a discussion that requires dispassionate argument and real evidence, which your family's situation is not. Oh, I am sorry. I was unaware that personal accounts were not considered real evidence. What about the other evidence that I posted? Going to still hand wave it away? What evidence would you accept?
Who knows, if the whole story were presented your family might be shown to be in the right, but the whole story is not getting presented here, not even a smidgen of the other side's point of view, and this is unfair argumentation. No it is really fair actually. Ther reason you think it is unfair is because you made a blatant generalization that is incorrect. It is only unfair becuase your initial postion is extremely hard to support. You gave yourself too tough a job to do.
Is that an objective argument there or just an emotional outburst? Uh no. I posted a link to this that confirms, lets dig it up:
BBC NEWS | World | Middle East | Gaza raids 'left 2,000 homeless'
and here is another:
Rafah: Israel Destroys 2000 Homes Displaces 30,000 | Scoop News
RAFAH, Palestine -Said Zu’rob, mayor of Rafah municipality, revealed that the Israeli occupying forces had completely destroyed 1500 houses and partially damaged 500 others in Rafah city, south of Gaza Strip, within the last 38 months of Al Aqsa Intifada. ... Also, he was stunned at the Israeli occupation leveling and uprooting of thousands of the fruitful trees under the pretext of shutting down the tunnels. So yes while I have been pretty emotional, I have actually produced evidence. What more do you want me to do with this medium. It is not like I can drag anyone down there to show them in person. If you don't like news sources then I don't know what else to do. Maybe you can tell me what kinds of evidence you will accept. Not that it matters ALL that much. This is more for the other people reading this who haven't been reading pro-Israel propaganda for over 2 years.
See how you make this into a battle of emotion? You tell us "no reason" but you don't know that. Would you execute a person for a crime on the basis of an emotional witness' accusation? No. But if someone came screaming to me that their family member had just been murdered I wouldn't say, "naa, he probably had a pretty good reason."
Be careful, that's how miscarriages of justice occur all the time. That's all you're doing here, making emotional accusations, proving nothing. As you implication that this is what I want is false. You have distilled something out of my argument that I did not say.
I'm not in a position to prove anything with nothing but your feelings for facts, and you are proving nothing whatever. This discussion is completely worthless as it is all nothing but your emotional assertions, Don't forget the links that you don't like.
and I'm going to end it. No more discussion of Palestine from me. It's gone way off topic anyway. You were the one arguing that it was on topic! Whatever. I am going to respond to your posts as long as you are making them on this issue. If you don't want to reply then I don't care. This is less about you anymore anyway. We already know what you think. By the way, for a fun second-term drinking game, chug a beer every time you hear the phrase, "...contentious but futile protest vote by democrats." By the time Jeb Bush is elected president you will be so wasted you wont even notice the war in Syria. -- Jon Stewart, The Daily Show
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Kapyong Member (Idle past 3696 days) Posts: 344 Joined: |
Greetings Jazzns,
Just a quick note to let you know that I, (and I dare say others here as well) are well aware of the barbaric actions of the IDF - and the blatant media bias that ensures all Palestianian atrocities are reported while the larger number of Israeli ones get ignored. Many people commiserate with the evil pressed upon the Palestinians by the IDF, even if apologists like Faith refuse to admit it. Keep up the good work, even if we all know people like Faith will never listen - there are others who do :-) Iasion
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Jazzns Member (Idle past 4165 days) Posts: 2657 From: A Better America Joined: |
Say, the Palestinian refugee situation was caused by the Arab states but blaming Israel and fighting Israel is just fine anyway, right? That is interesting. You see, I thought, and pretty much the UN agrees, that they fighting is because native Palestinians have been illegally displaced.
Global Policy Forum Look out, here comes the Israel hating BBC:BBC NEWS | Middle East | UN condemns Israeli settlements List of UN resolutions against Israel.http://www.middleeastnews.com/unresolutionslist.html Some snippits from the above site:
This message has been edited by Jazzns, 02-27-2005 19:39 AM By the way, for a fun second-term drinking game, chug a beer every time you hear the phrase, "...contentious but futile protest vote by democrats." By the time Jeb Bush is elected president you will be so wasted you wont even notice the war in Syria. -- Jon Stewart, The Daily Show
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Jazzns Member (Idle past 4165 days) Posts: 2657 From: A Better America Joined: |
NOTICE: I am no longer responding to posts about the Palestine-Israel conflict. Good.
It became a battle about unprovable personal experience and feelings and I don't want to play that game. It only boils down to personal experiences because you choose not to accept the evidence I posted. You don't have to play any game. This is not for you anymore anyway.
If somebody wants to try to collect the objective aspects of it in another thread maybe I'll join you. Well, you were the one who started arguing that it was on topic. I'll not start a new thread because my own purpose here was to dismiss your wanton arguments, not bring up new ones. By the way, for a fun second-term drinking game, chug a beer every time you hear the phrase, "...contentious but futile protest vote by democrats." By the time Jeb Bush is elected president you will be so wasted you wont even notice the war in Syria. -- Jon Stewart, The Daily Show
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Jazzns Member (Idle past 4165 days) Posts: 2657 From: A Better America Joined: |
I hope you'll be able to put asside our previous spat when dealing with the "on topic" part of this thread.
"Isa" is the legitimate Arabic equivalent of "Jesus", but "Allah" is not the Name of God. If it were ALWAYS used only in its generic or at least popular sense as "God" (which, as I understand it, is not linguistically or historically correct in any case) there would not be a problem, but when it is used as God's Name it is false. [Edit: He is not the same God in any case because he does not have the same character and attributes as the true God who reveals Himself in the Bible and nowhere else.] If I remember correctly, Moslems don't have a name for God like Christians do. Allah translates directly into "God" from Arabic to English. Most of the complains from Christians stem from their false belief that Allah is a God different from the God of Abraham. The same God that founded Judaism and Christianity. That is why the three religions are called the Abrahamic Faiths. Just because their version of of God differs from that of Christianity does not mean that THEY don't consider it to be the same God. They consider Christians more like wayward brothers than true idolaters. They recognize that their God is the same as the Christian God with the exception of the divinity of Christ. Granted this is a big difference from a Christian perspective but they consider it the same God.
And of course they don't believe in Jesus as they believe wrong things about Jesus. Well, they believe that Jesus existed. That he was a prophet. That he is coming back during Armageddon and will reign on earth after defeating sin. The only difference is that they do not believe in his divinity. So you are incorrect in saying that they do not believe in Jesus. They just believe in Jesus differently then we do. By the way, for a fun second-term drinking game, chug a beer every time you hear the phrase, "...contentious but futile protest vote by democrats." By the time Jeb Bush is elected president you will be so wasted you wont even notice the war in Syria. -- Jon Stewart, The Daily Show
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Jazzns Member (Idle past 4165 days) Posts: 2657 From: A Better America Joined: |
On this forum we speak English, in which language the generic word for God is "God." For an English-speaking Muslim to call God "Allah" instead of "God" is to use a name for God, NOT the generic as is so often claimed. I live in the southwest which is very much bilingual. Often times people who have two different laguages will substitute a word that they feel more comfortable even when in the context of the other language. I remember my grandma telling me, "Go lavar your hands!" when I was a kid. With a concept like God I would expect someone to use the phrase in the language that they feel more comfortable with. I have heard many Moslems use God instead of Allah when translating lessons from an Imam. I have also heard them use both interchangably during the same lesson. I think the main point is that you are not the one to decide what the definition of Allah is. They think of it as the same God as the God from the old testament. They define it that way. Any alternate definition used when discussing what they believe is just plain wrong.
[Edit: And again, the Muslim God is not the Biblical God because he does not have the same character and attributes as the Biblical God.] Once again. You don't get to define that. You may consider it to be different but they do not. When discussing what they believe you need to use their definition of God.
Time for you to concede something. LONG PAST time as a matter of fact. You should also concede that your personal experience does not amount to an argument as it is only the testimony of a witness in a case in which the other side has no representation. I'll do no such thing. I backed up my experiences with links. If you dont like the links then that is fine, others will. We can leave this alone now. By the way, for a fun second-term drinking game, chug a beer every time you hear the phrase, "...contentious but futile protest vote by democrats." By the time Jeb Bush is elected president you will be so wasted you wont even notice the war in Syria. -- Jon Stewart, The Daily Show
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Jazzns Member (Idle past 4165 days) Posts: 2657 From: A Better America Joined: |
All I'm doing is answering the absurd TOTAL smear campaign against them that says they never do anything right, they are nothing but evil murderers without any redeeming moral qualities, there are no just reasons for one single thing they ever do. If you are talking about me, I never maid the claim that everything they do is evil. I am countering your claim that all they do is blameless which you seem to have recanted of. Just wanted to be clear. By the way, for a fun second-term drinking game, chug a beer every time you hear the phrase, "...contentious but futile protest vote by democrats." By the time Jeb Bush is elected president you will be so wasted you wont even notice the war in Syria. -- Jon Stewart, The Daily Show
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Jazzns Member (Idle past 4165 days) Posts: 2657 From: A Better America Joined: |
Thanks for your support.
Yea. I am done trying to convince Faith. I'll only respond anymore to make sure that fallacies don't stand without rebuttal. I'll not let the last post on this topic be a falsehood. This message has been edited by Jazzns, 02-27-2005 21:54 AM By the way, for a fun second-term drinking game, chug a beer every time you hear the phrase, "...contentious but futile protest vote by democrats." By the time Jeb Bush is elected president you will be so wasted you wont even notice the war in Syria. -- Jon Stewart, The Daily Show
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Firebird Inactive Member |
Chris,
As the 300th post approaches, I can see no effective rebuttal of your OP. Also, Jazzns, I wish I'd had more to contribute, but none of it would be accepted as evidence. Although of a different nationality, my parents and two grandparents were born in Haifa.
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