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Author Topic:   Islam does not hate christianity
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1693 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 241 of 320 (188830)
02-27-2005 12:19 AM
Reply to: Message 238 by jar
02-26-2005 11:15 PM


Re: Prophets
quote:
So the question remains, "must a prophet get his revelation direct from GOD?"
OK, foiled by my imperfect knowledge of the Bible. But of course God isn't Ahura Mazda and God isn't Allah and the angels of the Bible are serving the true God but I know I can't prove it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 238 by jar, posted 02-26-2005 11:15 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 245 by crashfrog, posted 02-27-2005 3:02 AM Faith has replied
 Message 247 by jar, posted 02-27-2005 10:33 AM Faith has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1693 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 242 of 320 (188831)
02-27-2005 12:23 AM


Muslim persecution of Christians
A symposium on the topic, to get this thread back on topic.
Inside Every Progressive Is A Totalitarian Screaming To Get Out - David Horowitz

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1693 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 243 of 320 (188845)
02-27-2005 2:56 AM
Reply to: Message 225 by Trixie
02-26-2005 6:09 PM


Problem with Islam

This message is a reply to:
 Message 225 by Trixie, posted 02-26-2005 6:09 PM Trixie has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 249 by Andya Primanda, posted 02-27-2005 11:03 AM Faith has not replied
 Message 252 by Jazzns, posted 02-27-2005 11:57 AM Faith has not replied
 Message 264 by Trixie, posted 02-27-2005 3:16 PM Faith has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1693 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 244 of 320 (188846)
02-27-2005 2:57 AM
Reply to: Message 225 by Trixie
02-26-2005 6:09 PM


Re: Shatila / Sabra
Duplicate post. Sorry.
This message has been edited by Faith, 02-27-2005 02:58 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 225 by Trixie, posted 02-26-2005 6:09 PM Trixie has not replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1716 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 245 of 320 (188847)
02-27-2005 3:02 AM
Reply to: Message 241 by Faith
02-27-2005 12:19 AM


Re: Prophets
But of course God isn't Ahura Mazda and God isn't Allah and the angels of the Bible are serving the true God but I know I can't prove it.
And of course, they say the same thing about you. And that's really what it always comes down to, isn't it? Religious prickwaving. It's like the theological Cola Wars.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 241 by Faith, posted 02-27-2005 12:19 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 246 by Faith, posted 02-27-2005 3:07 AM crashfrog has not replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1693 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 246 of 320 (188849)
02-27-2005 3:07 AM
Reply to: Message 245 by crashfrog
02-27-2005 3:02 AM


Re: Prophets
quote:
And of course, they say the same thing about you. And that's really what it always comes down to, isn't it? Religious prickwaving. It's like the theological Cola Wars.
Sure, that's life. People disagree on all kinds of things. Our job is to find the truth in the whole mess, not give up. They could theoretically all be false but they certainly couldn't all be true as they contradict each other. There's the first clue in the puzzle.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 245 by crashfrog, posted 02-27-2005 3:02 AM crashfrog has not replied

jar
Member
Posts: 34140
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 247 of 320 (188883)
02-27-2005 10:33 AM
Reply to: Message 241 by Faith
02-27-2005 12:19 AM


One down
OK, foiled by my imperfect knowledge of the Bible.
So you agree that prophecy can be transmitted through an intermediary such as an angel?
Are we still together?
If so, is the Christian GOD the same person as the Jewish GOD?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 241 by Faith, posted 02-27-2005 12:19 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 257 by Faith, posted 02-27-2005 1:52 PM jar has replied

Andya Primanda
Inactive Member


Message 248 of 320 (188887)
02-27-2005 11:02 AM
Reply to: Message 204 by Faith
02-25-2005 8:58 PM


Re: Koran verses on jihad
I once had a stalemate discussion with Buzsaw about the nature of war verses in the Qur'an, here:
EvC Forum: Fundamental Biblical Christianity and Fundamental Islam Fundamentally 180% Opposites
Start with my reply on message 82.
I can't write much at the moment but I'm keeping an eye on this. And Faith, you are just taking Qur'an verses out of context. Again.
The Qur'an only said that violence is allowed in defense. Period.
2:178 is about retaliating. This is allowed in Islam.
2:190 is 'fight those who fight you'. Defense.
2:193 and 2:216 is about fighting against oppression. That's a reason.
The chapter 3 verses relate to the Battle of Uhud, which is an attack to Muslims in Medina by Mecca pagans. So they're all about defense.
4:89 is about violence against 'the hypocrites', a group of people that backstabbed the early Muslim community.
4:100 is not about fighting, it's about fleeing persecution (seeking asylum)! The translation's inaccurate.
If you have issues with that please specify.
Now if you could be so kind in singling out one Qur'anic verse that tell me to do offensive violence against non-Muslims...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 204 by Faith, posted 02-25-2005 8:58 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 260 by Faith, posted 02-27-2005 2:19 PM Andya Primanda has not replied
 Message 270 by Faith, posted 02-27-2005 4:04 PM Andya Primanda has not replied

Andya Primanda
Inactive Member


Message 249 of 320 (188888)
02-27-2005 11:03 AM
Reply to: Message 243 by Faith
02-27-2005 2:56 AM


Re: Problem with Islam
Your problem with Islam is caused by a list of Islam-hating websites?
Then the solution of the problem is stop reading them and try to do a discussion with your local knowledgeable Muslims. That should clear things up! I know you're just misinformed.
This message has been edited by Andya Primanda, 02-27-2005 11:10 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 243 by Faith, posted 02-27-2005 2:56 AM Faith has not replied

Jazzns
Member (Idle past 4160 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 250 of 320 (188891)
02-27-2005 11:50 AM
Reply to: Message 227 by Faith
02-26-2005 6:53 PM


Re: ...and the hatred lives on...
He/she had repeatedly said he was offended. That's emotion and that kind of emotion has the effect of shutting up anyone who thinks that perhaps the person who is offended on account of personal experience is in fact in the wrong.
He by the way.
The level of emotion expressed in a debate does not negate my argument. At times I expressed things in a very STRONG manner but that is because I constantly feel like you don't even read what I say. Maybe if I make it BOLD and UNDERLINED you might read it instead of skipping my posts like it seems you do. Since I have no basis for what you have read or not it is very frustrating for you to just repeat your argument after I had already raised a counterpoint instead of addressing my counterpoint. Regardless of why or how you post like you do makes it seem like you do not debate in good faith. You need to start addressing the points raised instead of just repeating your initial argument. Remember, YOU raised the claims and I have posted counterpoints. SO far they have been categorically ignored.
And that certainly does happen as those with the experience naturally see things from their own or their family's point of view and have little sympathy with the enemy. The only "proof" that the Israelis are at fault is that they destroyed his family's olive trees. While that sounds very bad, its badness so far has no justification other than the family's loss of the olive trees and his feelings about that.
This is a perfect example of your duck and dodge tactics regardless if they come from willfully ignoring my posts or accidently. "The only proof" that I have is not that my family had their olive trees torn down. It is that they repeated had them torn down after planting again, had their farm burned, had their children barred from school, with no justification. These actions can partially be confirmed from the links I posted about the destruction of Palestinian agriculture primarily olive trees. And then we have a wonderful comment of your following.
He doesn't know why the Israelis destroyed them, he merely assumes there was no good reason because he believes his family had no part in terrorist action and misses the olive trees.
What am I supposed to do with this statement? You basically accusing my family of supporting terrorism. You are also trivializing what bulldozing olive trees can do to a culture that depends on its agriculture resources. Once you plant a new olive tree it takes up to 2 generations of human lives before it starts producing harvest worthy fruit. Grandfathers will plant trees when they are young so that their grandchildren can eat the fruit.
My family did not "miss" the trees. They needed them. My family has never engaged in terrorism. You statement that "he believes his family had no part in terrorist action" is blatantly offensive. I am offended often not by your arguments but like uncalled for things that you say like this.
That's arguing from emotion, not fact.
The fact is that these things happened to my family. The fact is that my family are not terrorists. Therefore this refutes you argument that "all Israeli action is against terrorists."
You'd say that about me and not about jazzns whose support is ONLY his biased opinion? (To this point in the thread anyway).
And yours isn't. The only references you have given thus far have been pro-Israel apologetic sites and books. My arguments are from first hand experience and I have given you links from mainstream news which you choose to ignore because you think they are not worthy. In reality the only evidence you will accept is that which agrees with your argument. You cling so hard to your hatred of other people that you cannot even fathom that you might even be a little bit wrong.
I'm sure they HAVE been oppressed by the Israelis. I have no doubt about that. The Israelis are always bulldozing houses and going after terrorists in their villages. That has to be incredibly oppressive.
Well will you look at that. She budged. Thank you Faith.
But it's just amazing how the REASONS the Israelis are doing this are always left out of the story. And I'll get to your BBC report which is a case in point in a minute. All we hear are the sufferings of the Palestinians. It's just very strange how motive and cause makes no difference to anybody. Israeli military operations to stop suicide bombers are treated as if they were merely acts of aggression. This is crazy crazy moral blindness.
Well, if you had read the BBC and other news reports that I listed you will often find that the Israeli's were part of an action against identifiable militants when the atrocities occurred. In many of the news reports this is easily identifiable. In some of the other news reports where the IDF have not committed blatant atrocities you hear more about the Israeli suffering from an attack because the injustice is on the other side for a moment. Then you have the cases that are incredibly unjustified. The 12 year old girl got killed by being directly targeted. The IDF DOES USE human shields. The story I linked from FOX talks about how they made some men in a barbershop minding their own business drink shampoo and shave their heads. Houses get bulldozed even if they have no idea that they are housing or helping Hamas. There is no reason to destroy Palestinian infrastructure or stop children from going to school. The only thing that this does is enrage the populace being targeted. Groups like Hamas will never want to stop until minor concessions are made by Israel like....I don't know....for starters.....abiding by the Geneva Convention!
OK so I read this story. It's about Jenin which is a HOTBED of terrorist activity. So an Israeli soldier apparently lost his cool and shot the wrong person. That kind of thing happens a lot in all war, and this is certainly war. It ignores the context of the nervewracking tactics of the terrorists who pretend to be civilians, who hide in ambulances, who can appear in any guise whatever. I don't suppose you saw the video footage from a few years ago of a bunch of Palestinians carrying a dead comrade on a stretcher wrapped in cloth, when they dropped the stretcher, and the "dead" comrade got up off the ground and walked perfectly fine.
Don't pass the buck Faith. No has said that Hamas or other terrorists are innocent. No one here is claiming thus far that some Palestinians are committing atrocities of their own. The whole point is you said that all action is against terrorists. Since you seem to have partially agreed we can just issue a "war sucks" and move on to the topic about Islam.
The Israelis set up checkpoints and build a wall, bulldoze terrorist tunnels closed and try to kill terrorists without harming civilians, all to protect themselves, but the great media machine ALWAYS play up the inconveniences to the Palestinians caused by these operations [and] makes them [the Israelis] out to be the aggressors. What a set-up.
Okay. This is another example of why you are offensive. Lets read this one more time.
the inconveniences to the Palestinians caused by these operations
I suppose that dying is technically and inconvenience but your rhetoric is not very amusing. Have the government go bulldoze your house and destroy your way of life and tell me if it is an "inconvenience" for you.
Also, they use the word "militants" which is akin to "freedom fighters" which carries a pro-Palestinian spin, avoiding "terrorists,"
Thats called "being objective" Faith. If they called all Palestinian fighters with guns terrorists then that would be a pro-Israel biased. It would be the same as calling the IDF "the most honorable protection force in the region". Maybe you should forgive the news for using neutral words like they should be.
I know my previous post was long but it would be courteous if you could at least tell me if you planned on responding.

By the way, for a fun second-term drinking game, chug a beer every time you hear the phrase, "...contentious but futile protest vote by democrats." By the time Jeb Bush is elected president you will be so wasted you wont even notice the war in Syria.
-- Jon Stewart, The Daily Show

This message is a reply to:
 Message 227 by Faith, posted 02-26-2005 6:53 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 261 by Faith, posted 02-27-2005 2:49 PM Jazzns has replied
 Message 262 by Faith, posted 02-27-2005 2:51 PM Jazzns has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2419 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 251 of 320 (188894)
02-27-2005 11:56 AM
Reply to: Message 79 by PecosGeorge
02-23-2005 10:01 PM


Re: Faith, Faith, Faith
Oh ok I see what you mean its only terrorism if you aren't xtian....
quote:
I'm stumped, but perhaps you don't know that everything that calls itself Christian does not a Christian make. There are loads of non-Christians attending church, non-Christian because they have no clue what it means to be one. They come in all sizes, from pope to pauper, and you can tell a man by his actions and his words. You talk the talk, you walk the walk. Christian terrorists is, therefore, a contradiction in terms.
This is the "No True Scotsman" logical fallacy.
It goes like this:
"No true Scotsman puts sugar on his porridge.
Angus MacGregor, who has always lived in Glasgow, puts sugar on his porridge.
Angus MacGregor is not a true Scotsman."
You are simply redefining, to adhere to our modern cultural sensibilities, what it means to be Christian in order to distance yourself from the atocities committed by Christians.
Just because you don't like what some Christians did in the past doesn't mean you now get to say they aren't Christians.
They were Christians, because they thought of themselves a Christian, believed in Christ, and believed they were doing God's work. You simply judge them as non Christians by your modern standards of what a good Christian should act like.
Tell me, if in a thousand years, cultural standards have changed in that Christinas in the future consider it an abomination and a sin to use the computer, would it be accurate of them to look back at your computer use and declare that you were never a "true Christian?"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by PecosGeorge, posted 02-23-2005 10:01 PM PecosGeorge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 307 by PecosGeorge, posted 02-28-2005 2:50 PM nator has not replied
 Message 308 by PecosGeorge, posted 02-28-2005 2:53 PM nator has not replied

Jazzns
Member (Idle past 4160 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 252 of 320 (188895)
02-27-2005 11:57 AM
Reply to: Message 243 by Faith
02-27-2005 2:56 AM


Nice List Of Links
Pulled from one of my previous posts.
Jazzns previously writes:
I know you think you have some kind of insight into the Moslem world from whatever you studied since 9/11. I am also willing to wager that you have read very little pro-Moslem material or have actually tried to investigate the culture from an anthropological standpoint. I am nearly certain that all you have read has been criticisms of Islam and Arab culture. Tell us what you have studied Faith. Prove me wrong. Show me that your objections come from actual understanding of what you are talking about.
You are making this guess of mine more and more founded.
This message has been edited by Jazzns, 02-27-2005 09:57 AM

By the way, for a fun second-term drinking game, chug a beer every time you hear the phrase, "...contentious but futile protest vote by democrats." By the time Jeb Bush is elected president you will be so wasted you wont even notice the war in Syria.
-- Jon Stewart, The Daily Show

This message is a reply to:
 Message 243 by Faith, posted 02-27-2005 2:56 AM Faith has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2419 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 253 of 320 (188915)
02-27-2005 1:06 PM
Reply to: Message 177 by Faith
02-25-2005 11:41 AM


Re: Palestinian Christians
quote:
But also, I simply do not trust the reports that come out of Arab, Muslim or even European sources any more. I don't trust Amnesty International, I don't trust the BBC. I think their bias is obvious.
Tell me, is there any information source critical of Israel that you do trust? IF so, please link to it or list it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 177 by Faith, posted 02-25-2005 11:41 AM Faith has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2419 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 254 of 320 (188922)
02-27-2005 1:28 PM
Reply to: Message 221 by Faith
02-26-2005 5:39 PM


Re: Islam is the enemy of all nonMuslims
quote:
There is no surface meaning(or deep meaning for that matter) in the Bible that orders the believer to do harm to anyone
...except when God has ordered it.
Right?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 221 by Faith, posted 02-26-2005 5:39 PM Faith has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2419 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 255 of 320 (188925)
02-27-2005 1:35 PM
Reply to: Message 223 by Faith
02-26-2005 5:53 PM


Re: Islam is the enemy of all nonMuslims
You are excusing genocide. You keep calling it "justice". Make no mistake, Faith, you are the one who is confused. There can never be any justification for genocide. Never.
quote:
Sometimes there is. God says so.
So, God just told me that all Jews need to be eliminated, that Hitler was correct, that Jews really are the cause of all of the world's problems.
The Final Solution is the One True Way.
That's what God says.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 223 by Faith, posted 02-26-2005 5:53 PM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 310 by PecosGeorge, posted 02-28-2005 3:04 PM nator has not replied

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