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Author Topic:   Problems With God's Perfection.
Critical Rationalist
Member (Idle past 5846 days)
Posts: 17
From: Australia
Joined: 03-15-2008


Message 1 of 58 (460436)
03-15-2008 12:54 AM


First Post. Hello.
I’ll get straight into it.
I’m not saying that I do or don’t believe in God, but I thought of this argument the other day and was wondering what others thought of it and what flaws they could see in it?
  1. People are individuals and have different perspectives on issues.
  2. God is perfect.
  3. God can do all things which are not a contradiction in terms.
  4. Therefore, a perfect God would be different according to people’s different perspectives. (1,2)
  5. Therefore, God cannot fulfill all people’s requirements of perfect as this would inevitably lead to contradictions. (3,4)
  6. Therefore God does not exist. (2,5)
The key issue which this argument examines is Gods perfection. Perfect for who?
For example: Some Christian fundamentalists would define a perfect God as one who punishes Homosexuals for eternity in hell. Others would define a perfect God as one who gives mercy to all. God cannot logically do both as this is a contradiction.
Also is God perfectly forgiving? If so he must first have had to have felt to be wronged.
Edited by Critical Rationalist, : No reason given.
Edited by Critical Rationalist, : Is this to the forums satisfaction?
Edited by Admin, : Fix list.

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by Admin, posted 03-15-2008 9:02 AM Critical Rationalist has replied
 Message 5 by Chiroptera, posted 03-16-2008 5:39 PM Critical Rationalist has replied
 Message 16 by Blue Jay, posted 03-19-2008 9:44 PM Critical Rationalist has not replied
 Message 56 by Phat, posted 03-28-2008 5:26 AM Critical Rationalist has not replied

  
Admin
Director
Posts: 12995
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 2 of 58 (460458)
03-15-2008 9:02 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Critical Rationalist
03-15-2008 12:54 AM


We're usually a bit reluctant to promote thread proposals by new members, feeling it important that they first get a feel for the place by participating in existing threads, and also giving them an opportunity to familiarize themselves with the message formatting codes.
But if you're willing to fix this up a bit I'll promote it. I'd like you to do two things:
  1. Change the title to something specific rather than generic, perhaps "A Contradictory God Cannot Exist", just to give you a rough idea of what I'm looking for.
  2. Please use the [list] dBCode on your list. If while editing your message you look to the left of the message box you'll see a help link for the dBCodes. You can also click on the "Peek" button below this message, which shows the text of the raw message, including how I created this list.
Please post a note when you're done editing.
Edited by Admin, : Add final sentence.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Critical Rationalist, posted 03-15-2008 12:54 AM Critical Rationalist has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Critical Rationalist, posted 03-16-2008 4:57 PM Admin has not replied

  
Critical Rationalist
Member (Idle past 5846 days)
Posts: 17
From: Australia
Joined: 03-15-2008


Message 3 of 58 (460567)
03-16-2008 4:57 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by Admin
03-15-2008 9:02 AM


Fixed?
I've made the required changes is it all ship-shape? By the way this is not my first forum and I’ve looked around a bit so need not worry about me.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by Admin, posted 03-15-2008 9:02 AM Admin has not replied

  
Admin
Director
Posts: 12995
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 4 of 58 (460573)
03-16-2008 5:24 PM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 5 of 58 (460576)
03-16-2008 5:39 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Critical Rationalist
03-15-2008 12:54 AM


God is perfect.
The English word perfect comes to us from the Latin meaning "completion" or "fullness", and, indeed, in the earliest use in English meant to "to bring to completion or fullfillment." This is the sense used by the Greek philosophers and the early Christian theologians when they described the Supreme Being as "perfect", that in all of its qualities, it possesses them in the utmost sense.
But you are not alone; many, probably most, evangelical Christians also make the mistake in thinking that "God is perfect" means that God is the bestest in the whole world. But, as you point out, that makes no sense since "good", "best", and so the modern "perfect" is subjective and ambiguous. It is humorous (at least I think so -- but my sense of humor may be odd) to point this out to those who come in claiming that God is perfect. The problem with most fundamentalists is they don't even understand rudimentary theology. (Heck, most of them are heretics, Modalists to be exact, but that's another topic.)

Rats and roaches live by competition under the laws of supply and demand; it is the privilege of human beings to live under the laws of justice and mercy. -- Wendell Berry

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Critical Rationalist, posted 03-15-2008 12:54 AM Critical Rationalist has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by Critical Rationalist, posted 03-17-2008 7:10 AM Chiroptera has not replied

  
Agobot
Member (Idle past 5529 days)
Posts: 786
Joined: 12-16-2007


Message 6 of 58 (460582)
03-16-2008 7:21 PM


God is definitely not perfect for everyone(that's actually very obvious). In fact God is the greatest killer of all time - God has killed close to 20 billion people so far. But if we want to add some realistic sentiment to this discussion, you cannot avoid the inevitable question - what God are you talking about???
Edited by Agobot, : No reason given.
Edited by Agobot, : No reason given.

  
Critical Rationalist
Member (Idle past 5846 days)
Posts: 17
From: Australia
Joined: 03-15-2008


Message 7 of 58 (460606)
03-17-2008 7:10 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Chiroptera
03-16-2008 5:39 PM


quote:
that in all of its qualities, it possesses them in the utmost sense.
I still don't really understand what the perfection element of God is; omniscience and omnipotence I can understand, but what qualities does he posses in the utmost sense?

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by iano, posted 03-17-2008 8:23 AM Critical Rationalist has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 8 of 58 (460610)
03-17-2008 8:23 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by Critical Rationalist
03-17-2008 7:10 AM


CR writes:
I still don't really understand what the perfection element of God is; omniscience and omnipotence I can understand, but what qualities does he posses in the utmost sense?
Hi Critical Rationalist.
Justness springs to mine. Perfect justice would ensure that every single offence was brought before court to be dealt with according to law. No one would escape the law. This in contrast to imperfect justice where crime frequently pays.
All the facts in every case would be available to the judge: the circumstances of the offence, the motivation of the accused, the influence and complicitness of others, the level of knowledge of right and wrong available to the accused, the damage caused etc. There would be no miscarriages of justice, no plea bargaining, no partiality in judge or jury. Each and every offence would attract the exact price due for it under law. Justice: fair, square and blind
-
Forgiveness is another area where perfection would contrast with the way we can experience forgiveness. The general principle in forgiveness is that the offended party pays the price of the offence. It elimates 'but' from the phrase "I forgive you but.."
For example: a friend calls to my house to see my new BMW M3 (I wish). I get called away for an hour and leave him admiring it but: "I'm afraid you can't have a spin in her - I've not got insurance yet".
He decides to take the uninsured BMW for a quick nip around the block - just to get a bit of a feel for it. He loses it at a bend and wraps the car around a tree. The cars a total loss but he's alright.
Forgiving him means I pay the cost of a new car (or do without one). It means that I bear my friend no ill will nor hold a grudge. It means I carry on with my friend as if he had never taken my car in the first place. He could call around to my house to see the next car I get and I would leave the keys with him if called away just as I did the first time.
It's not that we cannot approach such a level of forgiveness at times ourselves. We can. Some people have forgiven incredible things. It's just that perfect forgiveness involves God doing it time and time again and never failing to do it. I do the equivilent of "smashing car after car" and God keeps on forgiving me. And he promises that he won't ever stop forgiving me.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Critical Rationalist, posted 03-17-2008 7:10 AM Critical Rationalist has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by Critical Rationalist, posted 03-17-2008 5:05 PM iano has replied

  
Critical Rationalist
Member (Idle past 5846 days)
Posts: 17
From: Australia
Joined: 03-15-2008


Message 9 of 58 (460646)
03-17-2008 5:05 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by iano
03-17-2008 8:23 AM


Isn't this model of perfect justice and perfect forgiving exactly the contradiction which I have used as an example in my first post? How can God both employ perfect justice, by which there would be punishment, and forgiving by there would be no punishment?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by iano, posted 03-17-2008 8:23 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by iano, posted 03-18-2008 10:09 PM Critical Rationalist has replied

  
Chessmaster
Junior Member (Idle past 4628 days)
Posts: 11
Joined: 03-15-2008


Message 10 of 58 (460655)
03-17-2008 6:01 PM


God does not have perfect mercy, for which hell could not exist. Or, certainly could not be populated by any.

  
Agobot
Member (Idle past 5529 days)
Posts: 786
Joined: 12-16-2007


Message 11 of 58 (460656)
03-17-2008 6:05 PM


God is a metamorphic entity - if you are a true believer, you'll find a way to twist the idea you have about god and make it fit in whatever you wish that god was.

  
Dr Evolution
Junior Member (Idle past 5854 days)
Posts: 6
Joined: 01-26-2008


Message 12 of 58 (460658)
03-17-2008 6:17 PM


that is correct Agobot. I remember recently having a conversation with a Christian about the statue on mars that was thought to be discovered recently. Fearing a test of her belief, she relaxed and said to me - well, i'm open minded, in the Bibles old testament it talks about buildings being sky high and awesome cities that may have been futuristic, made by the Egyptians and so on. Suggesting that they may have been tall enough to go into space. And also hinted at a space ship. Of course, all this technology was lost after the flood.
However, it shows how far people will go as they MUST defend their faith. Turns out the statue was a rock anyway.

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 13 of 58 (460791)
03-18-2008 10:09 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Critical Rationalist
03-17-2008 5:05 PM


Absolute perfection.
CR writes:
Isn't this model of perfect justice and perfect forgiving exactly the contradiction which I have used as an example in my first post? How can God both employ perfect justice, by which there would be punishment, and forgiving by there would be no punishment?
Perfect forgiveness applies when forgiveness is on the agenda. When it is not on the agenda, it's not being on the agenda isn't the result of any imperfection in forgiveness. It's the result of inapplicability of forgiveness to the situation at hand.
Suppose that God made a promise that he would allow a man to (effectively) choose his eternal destiny: man with God or man apart from God. God, being a perfect promise keeper, can never break that promise. No matter what.
If man (effectively) chooses to spend eternity apart from God, then forgiveness doesn't find it's way onto the agenda. Technically speaking, forgiveness eliminates sin from a mans life. It wipes mans slate clean. But sin is the thing which keeps man apart from God - it acts like a solid wall of separation. It should be clear then, that in order for a man to have his choice maintained for eternity (and ensure Gods promise keeping is perfect), a mans sin cannot be forgiven... for eternity.
Forgiveness is on the agenda for those men who (effectively) choose to be with God for eternity. In order to fulfill his promise, God must forgive sin so as to remove the sin-barrier erected between man and God. That he forgives perfectly simply means that barrier is completely destroyed and man is permitted to enter the place where God himself dwells. Not in the outer courts, nor inner sanctum. But in the holy of holies itself. That's what perfection in forgiveness achieves.
Perfection in forgiveness should not be confused with some sort of Universal Amnesty - which would destroy man having a say in his eternal destiny. Such a thing could hardly be said to be perfect - given what perfection in forgiveness entails: whether by God or by me with my M3-thrashing friend.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Critical Rationalist, posted 03-17-2008 5:05 PM Critical Rationalist has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by Straggler, posted 03-19-2008 6:52 AM iano has replied
 Message 15 by Critical Rationalist, posted 03-19-2008 8:38 PM iano has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 14 of 58 (460808)
03-19-2008 6:52 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by iano
03-18-2008 10:09 PM


Re: Absolute perfection.
So God will forgive everything except for forsaking him. Is that right?
Surely the very fact that there is an 'except' in the statement above means that this is not 'perfect' forgivenes?
There are many Christians I know who believe that regardles of whether or not someone follows the Christian God or any God at all they will eventually be judged on their intentions and actions in much the same way as you described 'perfect' justice above (without the seeking forgiveness proviso)
What do you believe happens to those who, quite justifiably, just cannot bring themselves to accept something as big as God on faith alone and how does this fit in with your concept of perfect forgiveness?
Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by iano, posted 03-18-2008 10:09 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by iano, posted 03-20-2008 10:48 PM Straggler has replied

  
Critical Rationalist
Member (Idle past 5846 days)
Posts: 17
From: Australia
Joined: 03-15-2008


Message 15 of 58 (460886)
03-19-2008 8:38 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by iano
03-18-2008 10:09 PM


Re: Absolute perfection.
'iano' you've made some interesting points but I have to say I think they're flawed at this point in time:
Your model of the man who chooses his own destiny concurrently supports my inquiry. You state that 'perfect forgiveness' can be vetoed by Gods 'perfect promise keeping' this is still a contradiction in my logic, Straggler has pointed out why.
quote:
Technically speaking, forgiveness eliminates sin from a mans life.
I'm not sure I understand this, what do you mean by "technically speaking?" Although I am keen to keep this is as more a general theological, western monotheistic tradition, discussion without getting into specific dogma, I am interested to better know your point of view.
Edited by Critical Rationalist, : No reason given.

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 Message 13 by iano, posted 03-18-2008 10:09 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by iano, posted 03-20-2008 3:19 PM Critical Rationalist has not replied

  
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