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Member (Idle past 499 days) Posts: 3645 From: Indianapolis, IN Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Please give me so-called "proof" of Jesus or God. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
General Nazort Inactive Member |
Finally, I have just got to ask what does this mean? And why for a while was it a spanish accent and now it's a french accent? Because I am confused It is Spanish again... sigh Pray for mercy from... PUSS! In boots. (Don't forget the Spanish accent!)
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lfen Member (Idle past 4699 days) Posts: 2189 From: Oregon Joined: |
General,
Thanks. I've not seen the film. I sort of saw part of Shrek when visiting relatives, but I'm not much of a movie watcher or t.v. so a lot of popular culture passes me by. lfen
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Phat Member Posts: 18310 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Nine Methods for Testing a Worldview:
1. Coherence Test: Is a particular worldview logically consistent? An acceptable worldview will avoid "self-stultification," but will have component parts that hang together as a coherent whole. Noun 1. stultification - derision of someone or something as foolish or absurd or inconsistent befooling derision - contemptuous laughter Christianity is potentially believable and logical. Original Sin explains many human attitudes. While strictly unprovable, God is believable.2. stultification - the act of making something futile and useless (as by routine) deadening, constipation, impairment degradation, debasement - changing to a lower state (a less respected state) 2. Mean Test: Is the worldview balanced between complexity and simplicity? An acceptable worldview will be neither too simple (reductive fallacy) nor too complex (Ockham's Razor). All things being equal, the simplest, most economical, and yet fully orbed worldview is to be preferred. 3. Explanatory Power and Scope Test: How well does a worldview explain reality (power), and how complete is the evidence in support of the view (scope)? Christianity has lots of popular support. Although Christianity has lots of character witnesses, it has no concrete proofs, such as an Ark, a provable supernatural event, or a talking omnipotant voice. Many character witnesses will claim to have seen or heard these things, however.An acceptable worldview will explain reality and offer a breadth of evidence in support of its conclusions. 4. Correspondence Test: Does a particular worldview correspond with well-established, empirical facts? An acceptable worldview will match with the observed world. 5. Verification Test: Can the central truth claims of the worldview be verified or falsified? An acceptable worldview will make claims that can be tested and proven true or false. 6. Pragmatic Test: Does the worldview promote practical and workable consequences? An acceptable worldview will be practical, workable, sensible, and therefore "externally livable." 7. Existential Test: Does the worldview address the internal needs of humanity? An acceptable worldview will account for the human need for meaning, purpose, and significance, and therefore be "internally livable." 8. Competition Test: Can a worldview successfully compete in the marketplace of ideas? An acceptable worldview will be able to respond to reasonable challenges, and offer a critique of competing worldviews. 9. Predictive Test
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Tabitha Inactive Member |
To the person who requested proof that Jesus or God exists.
Is there anything in this world that has not been created by someone?Why is there a protective field around our Earth which causes any meteorite which could cause us harm to disintergrate when it enters our atmosphere? Why, would I believe the Scientists and Protestors who state that Jesus did not exist, when they are providing theories 2000 years after others who professed differently? I would be stupid indeed to do so. If you truly wish to know the answer to your question. Ask God to prove to you his existance. If you ask him you will receive your proof. Just humble yourself, pray to be shown something supernatural and you will receive something supernatural. I did, whether or not you believe me, is your perogative. Explain the miracle of the Sun, witnessed by 100,000 people at Fatima in 1917. Where more prophecies (that were subsequently fulfilled) were added to the long list of prophecies already in the Bible just so more doubters (like myself) might be knocked off guard long enough to accept that I did not know everything, and to ask a higher power to personally prove his existance to me. I received my proof, and have continued receiving proof upon request ever since. I know Jesus existed, and that God exists, not because of the Bible, or the account of Josephus, but because of the hundreds and thousands of people who have experienced proof of his existance when they felt the need enough to request proof from Him. My prayer was that my Mother would be healed of her lung disorder. She had had 50% lung capacity for 15 years. That was healed. I asked for my faith in God to be restored and it was also granted me. You do not have to believe me, - you probably won't believe me, but this post is testimony that I believed it happened! No I am not a great academic, like some of the people on this website. My degree is in Music. But if you try and put a human explanation onto the workings of God you can not. Why? Because God created us. What some people are trying to do is to turn God into their creation, something that they can accept at their level of understanding. If you level of understanding or mind state states to you that God does not exist, (whether through depression, bad religious experiences etc....)then my challenge to you is to ask God to change your mind state. He can do that because he is God! When you ask him for proof and you are given it, - and believe me you will.... that and only then is when you will gain your proof that God exists. God is like any earthly Father, if you ignore him and do not communicate with him, he is unlikely to continue the association, but one word, one telephone call, can start the relation up again and perhaps result in it being better than before! When you consider how our earth is made, and how the seasons come and go, and realise that if our earth were placed even slightly nearer the moon the tides would flood the earth (Like in the days of Noah)You may see the workings of some intelligent mind behind it. However I bet you will say it is just chance! You may as well say that your computer appeared in your room by chance, or your dinner appears on your plate by chance! Why does our planet look so green and beautiful and is so wonderful to behold, (when you exclude the atrocities that Man performs) and yet Mars and the Moon are so bleak and barren? "The climate!" you will say; "The Sun!" "The Moon!" Well, what kind, thoughtful and considerate entity, strategically stopped the Moon and the Sun in their flight away from the earth after "Your Big Bang" took place, so that they came to rest in the ideal position to be so serviceable to us who came into existance afterwards? Why in fact are we spinning round in the middle of nowhere on a big ball in the Cosmos? You will cry "The big bang!"again. Well feel free to contradict me, but most of the "Big bangs!" of this world usually have some intelligent life force behind them and are rarely experienced by chance. All I can say is,- Feel free to doubt that Christ exists if you choose to. Don't ask God for proof that he is there! (if you can not accept the proof of the marvels of the world you are living in.) But you must realise that the accounts that you claim are manufactured, have in many cases (when not abused )lead to the development of a humane society. Before Christ, Religions were secular and encouraged segregation of race. (Yes you will say that there is now today a raceless society, but who instigated that example!!!) Florence Nightingale was a Christian, - Hospitals! Charity Organisations were originally all started by Christians. You will say that there are a lot of very nice people in the world today, who are not Christian, who are naturally nice to people. But in a lot of cases, if they are not Christian themselves, they were probably brought up by Christian Parents, or even parents, who have seperated themselves from Christianity whose own parents were Christians. We are living in a world that has been the result of years of Christianity, whose inhabitants have sacked the founder of the movement and replaced him with a Board of Governors. Christs' philosophies if adhered to and not misinterpreted would stop religions being based on race and merge us all together whether Jew or Gentile. He taught us not to kill, not to seperate ourselves from other Nations but to love each other. Ridicule it as imaginative ramblings if you like, but those people wrote about beliefs and a person that beats anything that a society can come up with today in a world that has lost its spiritual direction. Look at the state of the World! That is what happens when you seperate yourself from God! There is only one alternative ruler! People with no belief in God are usually miserable and unhappy. So, I will continue to live as a Christian, even if others try and tell me Christ never existed. He is real to me and to many others. For he showed us what love truly is and what we could ourselves be if we tried. I don't think anyone can deny that. In closing, and I apologise if you think I have gone off subject, this is a one off posting and I'm not likely to post again as I don't usually take part in these discussions, - log onto http://www.zeitun-eg.org/stmaridx.htm, Look into it and by all means try and explain it! Then ask yourself,- whether you believe it or not, - why you do not hear about these things, or even, - Why you don't want to believe they happen???? Failing that, tune into the 700 Club on the God Channel. There are often miraculous healings documented on there that you will never explain away with science.
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jar Member (Idle past 416 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Hi Tabitha and welcome.
Why is there a protective field around our Earth which causes any meteorite which could cause us harm to disintergrate when it enters our atmosphere? There isn't. Just ask the Dinosaurs.
Explain the miracle of the Sun, witnessed by 100,000 people at Fatima in 1917. Where more prophecies (that were subsequently fulfilled) were added to the long list of prophecies already in the Bible just so more doubters (like myself) might be knocked off guard long enough to accept that I did not know everything, and to ask a higher power to personally prove his existance to me. We have a thread going on Biblical prophecy but so far no one has been able to show one. Feel free to drop in at Message 1 if you have some.
When you consider how our earth is made, and how the seasons come and go, and realise that if our earth were placed even slightly nearer the moon the tides would flood the earth (Like in the days of Noah)You may see the workings of some intelligent mind behind it. Actually, the moon used to be closer. A few billion years ago the tides would have been much greater. That may well have been one of the things that helped get life started.
Before Christ, Religions were secular and encouraged segregation of race. What????
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coffee_addict Member (Idle past 499 days) Posts: 3645 From: Indianapolis, IN Joined: |
Just thought I'd come back to look at the last page of this thread that I started. This post is an example the reason why I stopped reading this thread. People can't seem to understand that personal evidence and circular reasoning just don't cut it.
Oh well, back to ignoring this thread. The Laminator We are the bog. Resistance is voltage over current.
For goodness's sake, please vote Democrat this November!
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Phat Member Posts: 18310 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Darth, Lam, DingDong writes: Well, I can understand circular reasoning, but if you cut out personal experience, you will have to overhaul the U.S. Justice system, where character witnesses are freely used. If a life has been affected, it bears some attention to the reasons behind the change. People can't seem to understand that personal evidence and circular reasoning just don't cut it.At worst, Religious experiences could be likened to some common and enormous placebo effect, but I highly doubt that this settles the issue.
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joshua221  Inactive Member |
quote: What you just said is probably the most offensive, and irresponsible thing I've seen here at Evcforum.net to date... Proof for Jesus is for me Printed in the Bible, and in my heart. That most likely won't satisfy you. No,,, this mos def won't satisfy you. LOL Sorry to come in, without looking at the pages of posts before me... This message has been edited by prophex, 08-29-2004 08:39 PM "Wake up, O sleeper, rise from the dead, and Christ will shine on you." Ephesians 5:14
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joshua221  Inactive Member |
You should be more complete when posting a topic, try not to change it everytime jar and custard reply.
"Wake up, O sleeper, rise from the dead, and Christ will shine on you." Ephesians 5:14
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joshua221  Inactive Member |
Just to point it out, I am pretty sure you changed the idea of your original post like 5 times... (Pretend I am a Native of the Congo, custard, jar...)
"Wake up, O sleeper, rise from the dead, and Christ will shine on you." Ephesians 5:14
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lfen Member (Idle past 4699 days) Posts: 2189 From: Oregon Joined: |
My prayer was that my Mother would be healed of her lung disorder. She had had 50% lung capacity for 15 years. That was healed. May I ask what that condition was and if she was receiving medical treatment? Unlikely it was cystic fibrosis but maybe?, but asthma or tb? emphysema? Some lung conditions are more reversible than other. I am pleased to hear of a healing though. lfen
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Phat Member Posts: 18310 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Darth Mal writes: Oh, a simple native that wants non-personal and scientific evidence? Fascinating. But then, you qualify: I'm a native in the deep jungles of the Congo. You want to convert me. Before I give all my gods and my traditions, I need to at least hear some convincing scientific, non-personal, objective evidence or proofI forgot to mention the fact that I've been to Congo University and got a Ph.D. in biology and a Ph.D. in Physics. I am currently working on my Ph.D. in Philosophy. The fact that you want a non personal proof shows me that you need another Ph.D in sociology and perhaps one in theology as well. Jesus is very personal. It is impossible to prove a person to you without you meeting them. If you have no interest in knowing them, perhaps because you think that you already are fullfilled relationally, I shall never be able to provide what you ask yet do not need. Speaking as a double going on to triple doctorate graduate, I need more than simple assertions.. Yes. You need humility to meet God. You act as if human intellectuals can sit on their seats of collegiate wisdom, snap their fingers, and laugh as the uneducated theologians scramble to compete with their scientific methods. Does our educated Dr. Congo assume that his own mind is the source of all verifiable wisdom in his life? I respect him for being skeptical, but there is a measure of initial faith or honest expectation needed....one must first seek before finding.
Just thought I'd come back to look at the last page of this thread that I started. This post is an example the reason why I stopped reading this thread. People can't seem to understand that personal evidence and circular reasoning just don't cut it. Yes...but 2 or even 3 Doctorates will last as long as you do. When you die, you die as we all will. IF Jesus is real, He may ask you why you ignored Him. You may say that you merely ignored those ignorant Christians like Phatboy and that you did not see any proof for Him. Personally, I think at that point He will love ya...even more than Jacen does!Oh well, back to ignoring this thread. This message has been edited by Phatboy, 08-30-2004 10:26 PM
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coffee_addict Member (Idle past 499 days) Posts: 3645 From: Indianapolis, IN Joined: |
All of this would make sense IFF god exists at all. Here, let me translate what you just wrote.
"I have absolutely no tangible evidence or proof of god. If you would just throw away your logic, then you will "feel" him." Now, I want to use your way of reasoning to prove that there are green goblins running around. They are very personal. If you don't believe in them, you won't see them. You have to believe in them and you have to pray to them all the time. When you've reached a certain level of personalness with these green goblins, perhaps they will show themselves to you. There, I just proved to you that green goblins exist. This message has been edited by Darth Mal, 08-30-2004 10:35 PM The Laminator We are the bog. Resistance is voltage over current.
For goodness's sake, please vote Democrat this November!
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Phat Member Posts: 18310 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Darth Mal writes: I am not advocating throwing away or ignoring any logic. The difference between your Goblins and my Jesus is that many people have historically and rationally claimed Jesus. Changed lives is the other difference. If suddenly lives were changing around me for no other apparant reason except that someone said to come meet the goblin, I may suspend my logic and go check out the evidence.
If you would just throw away your logic, then you will "feel" him."
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coffee_addict Member (Idle past 499 days) Posts: 3645 From: Indianapolis, IN Joined: |
Phatboy writes:
Have you any idea how many people in the past claimed to have seen goblins, flying witches, ghosts, demons, fairies, and all kinds of nonsense that you can imagine. The difference between your Goblins and my Jesus is that many people have historically and rationally claimed Jesus. This message has been edited by Darth Mal, 08-31-2004 10:59 PM The Laminator We are the bog. Resistance is voltage over current.
For goodness's sake, please vote Democrat this November!
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