EvC Forum: Knowing God

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Topic: Knowing God

purpledawn

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Posts: 4453

From: Indiana

Joined: 04-25-2004

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Message 76 of 93 (359925)
10-30-2006 4:37 PM

Reply to: Message 75 by iano
10-30-2006 3:30 PM

Re: Children, But Different Role

quote:
They never will relate to God in anything like the way your adult daughter relates to you. As an equal - not in child-like need of your input for their journey.

I disagree. It is not the same sense of dependence as a nonadult child.

quote:
Take away Gods input and you falter. Who else is going to advise and guide your development if not him?

God is just a parent who never dies. So we always have access to his input. He just doesn't have to tell us what to do every day as our parents did when we were not adults.

quote:
Is there any picture you can think of at all which indicates anything but being led as a child the whole way down the path?

IMO, the NT was written for those lost or new to the faith. It wasn't written to the spiritually mature; so no I can't show you with the NT. But I also don't see that the NT indicates being led as a nonadult child down the whole path to knowing God.

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

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	Message 75 by iano, posted 10-30-2006 3:30 PM		iano has replied

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	Message 77 by iano, posted 11-01-2006 5:20 AM		purpledawn has replied

iano

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Posts: 6165

From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.

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Message 77 of 93 (360341)
11-01-2006 5:20 AM

Reply to: Message 76 by purpledawn
10-30-2006 4:37 PM

Re: Children, But Different Role

PD writes:

I disagree. It is not the same sense of dependence as a nonadult child.

God is just a parent who never dies. So we always have access to his input. He just doesn't have to tell us what to do every day as our parents did when we were not adults

These ideas seem to stem from your own opinion as you state below

There is no picture of anything but childlike dependance given in the Bible. Neither is there the idea contained within that it is written to those who you hold it was written to. Your opinion is thus, a non-Biblical one. I am at a loss as to how to continue so will retire from this element of the disussion. Cheers PD

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	Message 76 by purpledawn, posted 10-30-2006 4:37 PM		purpledawn has replied

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	Message 78 by purpledawn, posted 11-01-2006 10:38 AM		iano has not replied

purpledawn

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Posts: 4453

From: Indiana

Joined: 04-25-2004

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Message 78 of 93 (360400)
11-01-2006 10:38 AM

Reply to: Message 77 by iano
11-01-2006 5:20 AM

Trust Not Dependence

Sometimes I don't express my position well when conversing with you because I try to stay within the confines of how you read the Bible. I probably shouldn't do that.

Essentially, I disagree with the dependency scenerios you presented in Message 47. The references in the Bible to "being as a little child" (Mark 10:15) deal with trust, not dependency experienced by a little child. That's why I see the relationship with God as a parent to adult child.

Being born again, doesn't refer to being like a dependent infant.

In Rabbinic Judaism there are six ways to be born again.

Jesus used the term in a spiritual sense. Spiritual rebirth, not becoming dependent. This would be the throwing off of the old self.

Even Paul talked of doing away with childish things. (1 Cor 13:11)

In 2 Peter 1:5-9, the author speaks of adding to ones faith: goodness, knowledge, self-control, perseverance, godliness, brotherly kindness, and love. Once we cast off the old self we have to build the new self.

John 15:5
"I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.

This also doesn't speak of childlike dependency. It's speaking of spiritual fruit. A specific need that Jesus filled.

Looks like the NT supports my position more than I thought.

To start on the path to a new self, we trust Jesus and his teachings as the child in Mark 10:15. We are born again (spiritual rebirth) and start to build our new self. As we cast off old ways and learn and grow spiritually, we become more in tune with God and in this way we come to "know" God.

That's why I feel that the relationship with God is a parent to adult child relationship, not one of little child dependency.

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

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	Message 79 by Faith, posted 11-01-2006 5:49 PM		purpledawn has replied

Faith

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Message 79 of 93 (360549)
11-01-2006 5:49 PM

Reply to: Message 78 by purpledawn
11-01-2006 10:38 AM

Re: Trust Not Dependence

I may be joining this thread a bit late and missing something, but I have the impression that you are reading something into the "childlike" element here that may be keeping you from understanding it. As if we are to be reduced to children in every possible way. But I think the idea is merely that there is absolutely no way we can do anything without God to further our spiritual lives, it all has to come from Him. This doesn't render us infantile, it simply means that in all things we look to Him for the supplies and the abilities. Your quote about fruit is apropos. All fruit comes from abiding in Him, which is about drawing the power from Him, since we have none in ourselves. The process of growing up spiritually doesn't imply independence at any point, but better ability to draw on God and better ability to reject our own natural fleshly attempts to do-it-yourself. There is no loss of competence implied, but a steady gaining of competence in the things of the spirit, all through connectedness to the Source who supplies it. The most competent believers are the most dependent on God. There is no such thing as a self that is independent of God, or at least a self that can do anything right.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
	Message 78 by purpledawn, posted 11-01-2006 10:38 AM		purpledawn has replied

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iano

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Posts: 6165

From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.

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Message 80 of 93 (360554)
11-01-2006 6:35 PM

Reply to: Message 79 by Faith
11-01-2006 5:49 PM

I tried sis. I really did, Not helpless infants as we were born - needing everything spoon fed to us. No, growing and emerging from that - but never independant, never unreliant on him.

PD insists on adult-to-adult relationship. Reliance as kind of an option, not an absolute necessity.

To her credit however: she does say it is her 'own opinion'. Not something to be extracted from the Bible. There is tangible relief in that at least.

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purpledawn

Member (Idle past 3479 days)

Posts: 4453

From: Indiana

Joined: 04-25-2004

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Message 81 of 93 (360694)
11-02-2006 8:03 AM

Reply to: Message 79 by Faith
11-01-2006 5:49 PM

Re: Trust Not Dependence

My response is related to the examples given in Message 47.

quote:
As if we are to be reduced to children in every possible way.

Unfortunately when discussing reliance on God these types of analogies give that impression. Which is why many balk at starting the journey.

iano writes:

- the child recognises that he is totally dependant on his parent for anything that it has. All good things stem from the parent: the child not having the means to support itself.

- the parent is the one who picks the child up when it is hurt, who tends to wounds and assures that all is okay. The parent is the one who "wipes every tear from your eye".

- the parent is the one who steps in to protect (with its own life if necessary) the child against danger. This fierce protectiveness also confirms worth in the child. It also makes the child feel safe and protected.

quote:
But I think the idea is merely that there is absolutely no way we can do anything without God to further our spiritual lives, it all has to come from Him. ... Your quote about fruit is apropos. All fruit comes from abiding in Him, which is about drawing the power from Him, since we have none in ourselves.

Spiritual fruit. We can't do anything spiritually, not anything in general. In a mixed group that needs to be made clear.

quote:
The process of growing up spiritually doesn't imply independence at any point, but better ability to draw on God and better ability to reject our own natural fleshly attempts to do-it-yourself.

I haven't advocated that it brings independence from God and I agree that as we mature spiritually our ability to draw on God improves.

quote:
There is no loss of competence implied, but a steady gaining of competence in the things of the spirit, all through connectedness to the Source who supplies it.

Exactly. The NT authors don't imply a loss of competence, but the examples in Message 47 do.

That's why I feel that the spiritual relationship with God is more of a Parent to Adult Child relationship. The Adult Child takes care of their own physical needs, but turns to the parent for advice and guidance in dealing with hurdles in life as they continue to mature.

The scriptures I shared in Message 78 that speak of "being like a child" are referring to trust and not the childlike dependency shown in the examples in Message 47.

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

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	Message 82 by PurpleTeddyBear, posted 11-07-2006 11:33 AM		purpledawn has not replied

PurpleTeddyBear

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Posts: 21

From: Brownsburg, Indiana, USA

Joined: 10-22-2006

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Message 82 of 93 (362407)
11-07-2006 11:33 AM

Reply to: Message 81 by purpledawn
11-02-2006 8:03 AM

Here I are!

First let me say this thread grew too rapidly for me to follow. Although I am responsind to 'the entire' thread I simply have not had time to read it all. I am responding to what was the entire thread when I started my response - does that make sense(about as confusing as god, right). I mention this because if a point I am making has been discussed point me in that direction rather than jump down my throat and tug on my scrotum - ya dig? I wish I had more time to dick around on the net. All my dicking time was spent chatting with PHAT

I am going to respond to about 50 things 15 individuals said - it has been a while since I have followed up.

My first concern is the word, "belief" has been thrown around a lot. This is a dangerous word. Anyone who holds a belief they feel understand may not be true will most likely be able to accept this. Others well - LET THE DEBATE BEGIN! "Belief - A conclusion which was arrived at based on personal opinion, understanding and evidence'.

Often if not always the believer refuses to admit there is an outstanding chance they could be incorrect.

When dealing with issues of faith I think it is acceptable to remove the word, “often “ and replace it with always. 'The believer of faith based belief always refuses to admit their belief could be incorrect.'

[quote]believing what has been written about Him in the scriptures[quote]

quote:
and believing what He has said.

A belief that one knows: one knows christ is no more acceptable than a belief one knows they know Elvis is alive. However, for some reason if someone has a belief they know they know JC is real it is unacceptable to challenge it. If one knows they know Elvis is real they are medicated right away. The degree to which one is convinced this belief is true, the amount of passion one puts into a belief or the fact one is willing do die for a belief is not acceptable evidence the believing(knowing they know) is true.

Many of the responses seemed to reflect the following train of thought,

quote:
How does one know this is real? In the same way as we know that what our eyes and ears transmit to us about the world is real. We just know it. There is no proof that what our eyes and ears tranmit is true - we just know that it is.

Are you seriously suggesting we push universal skepticism forward? How do we know anything is real? How do we know we are infact communicating now? How do we know this isn't a dream? How do we know we are not someone's dream? Someone watched too The Matrix too much(I Know I have great flicks, no shit). However, someone crossed the line. I will gladly detail and discuss such crap if deemed mandatory. But, I feel enough said here right, folks? "god is real because: 'god is real' and I know I know him" is shaky ground. God is real because reality is real seems abusive to the word, some form of trickery (linguistically contortions) it seems something like my 8 year old says. Truthfully I am not sure what you are getting at. Could please re-explain. “Our eyes and ears could lie”?

quote:
It’s being able to talk to the air or to the empty room and having a comforting feeling that you are not talking to yourself

Heh, LOL, OH MY JESUS GOD! I GOTTA PEE! This is simply your justification of you talking to air. If anyone else talked to air or claimed to be talking to anything other than YHWH - boogie man, spaghetti monster, Hitler, Elvis, aliens or leprechauns we would seek help for them immediately. I am going to vomit I am laughing so hard!

Here it is! My favorite,

quote:
Describing feelings won't do it. The only way to meet Christ is in the Bible -- believing it -- there is no other way. You have to know who it is you want to know before you can know him, otherwise whatever feelings you get may not be Christ at all. AND you must be born again.

This is how Hitler operated before he brutally, slaughtered, murdered and tortured almost every Jew in his country. Speech after public speech after public speech he reassured what he said was true. An elite group of men was formed (SS) they shouted his same message. An elite group of youth was formed (HM). Within these groups an elite board was elected. The only to justify the slaughter of the innocent was simply to unlearn what you have learned and accept the other side. Come-on now - I am in my late 20s. Not some 10 year old child. In order for you to be an anti-theist you have to stop being a theist and try being an anti-theist for a few months. When you are an anti-theist you simply accept everything anti-theist have written as true.
(PS - this same type of logic is how suicide bombers recruit. I forget the name but NBC aired an outstanding show, like 20/20 on this, possibly I will look for it)

I will stop here to see maddening behavior this digs up. I am only 1/4 through the list (15 people 50 'things')

OFF TOPIC - Please Do Not Respond to this message or continue in this vein.
AdminPD

Edited by AdminPD, : Major Warning

This message is a reply to:
	Message 81 by purpledawn, posted 11-02-2006 8:03 AM		purpledawn has not replied

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	Message 83 by AdminPD, posted 11-07-2006 1:06 PM		PurpleTeddyBear has replied

AdminPD

Inactive Administrator

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Message 83 of 93 (362436)
11-07-2006 1:06 PM

Reply to: Message 82 by PurpleTeddyBear
11-07-2006 11:33 AM

Majorly Disappointed

quote:
I will stop here to see maddening behavior this digs up.

Here it is.

I promoted your thread because I thought you actually wanted serious spiritual answers to the questions you asked.
I did not see this as a setup to take pot shots at believers.

Per the rules: Avoid any form of misrepresentation.

I feel that your opening post was misleading and did not make your real discussion intent clear.

Per the rules: Always treat other members with respect. Argue the position, not the person. Avoid abusive, harassing and invasive behavior. Avoid needling, hectoring and goading tactics.

Writing with the intent to inflame is unacceptable on this board.

quote:
I am in my late 20s. Not some 10 year old child.

Then you should know better than to use questionable comments in mixed company.

Examples:
...rather than jump down my throat and tug on my scrotum...
I wish I had more time to dick around on the net.
I Know I have great flicks, no shit
I GOTTA PEE!

You also need to practice quoting and linking. If you are going to respond to various people in one thread, you need to make it clear who the quote is from (linking to the post is also nice) and who you are talking to with your replies.

If I really really misread your OP and missed the purpose in the questions you asked aside from the obvious, please show me the error of my ways in the moderation link below.

If I feel that your OP does not adequately reveal your intent for this discussion, I will close this thread.

Please direct any comments concerning this Admin msg to the Moderation Thread.
Any response in this thread will receive a 24 hour timeout.

Thank you

Usually, in a well-conducted debate, speakers are either emotionally uncommitted or can preserve sufficient detachment to maintain a coolly academic approach.-- Encylopedia Brittanica, on debate

Links for comments on moderation procedures and/or responding to admin msgs:

General discussion of moderation procedures

Considerations of topic promotions from the "Proposed New Topics" forum

Thread Reopen Requests

Great Debate Proposals

Helpful links for New Members:
Forum Guidelines, [thread=-19,-112], [thread=-17,-45], and Practice Makes Perfect

This message is a reply to:
	Message 82 by PurpleTeddyBear, posted 11-07-2006 11:33 AM		PurpleTeddyBear has replied

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	Message 84 by PurpleTeddyBear, posted 11-07-2006 5:21 PM		AdminPD has not replied

PurpleTeddyBear

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Posts: 21

From: Brownsburg, Indiana, USA

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Message 84 of 93 (362471)
11-07-2006 5:21 PM

Reply to: Message 83 by AdminPD
11-07-2006 1:06 PM

Jesus?

My real intent is to know how people know they know Jesus. As a parent if Jesus is real, I must know. Although I am more open to the boogie man or Bigfoot being real if Jesus exists I must know. Nothing in this world could be more important than knowing if Jesus is real. If Jesus is real and he is I have no choice to follow and love him. I gladly retract my remarks about ”maddening behavior’ -Voosh . I also apologize for my inability to properly quote posts of others. I've said some 'brash' things in Chat. I will not retract them these. If this gets me banned or pushed away so be it. However, I understand the general comments about my opinions I posted on public forum - be nice or go home.

Make no mistake I am an Atheist. I live in the USA(Brownsburg, Indiana). In the USA christianity is the most popular religion. Because of this I must focus my concern on christianity. I feel we intelligent adults must do everything within their power to end the spread of christianity immediately. Just as we would work to quickly stop the spread of small pox we must do the same with christianity. Short of violence I am open to any available methods to do this. I feel my role is a parent and the demand life places on me to protect my daughter are demands I take immediate action. I have not found my seat, my niche within ”atheism’ or anti-christian movement yet. I am not sure where I belong, what I can do or how I can help. I know posting here is not the best use of my time. Briefly, this 2,000 religion based on the misconception of men has nothing positive to lend to my daughter or myself. I will also go a step farther and say it has nothing positive to offer society. The grip christianity has held on this country has and will only continue to drag us down in every aspect of our lives. If no one will step forward I will carry the burden. Again I am not suggesting violence but I am more than a typer. I am receptive to hear about or become part of good ideas. Not for me but for my family. (Everyone knows my position now. No one in the future can ever again imply I attempted to mislead them).

However, on the off chance I am mistaken. If every other religion is/has been wrong and christianity is real I have no concern admitting my mistakes. If my option is to suffer in hell or live in happiness whit my family it is not a difficult decision. It is my opinion if god is good and Jesus is real and the pictures churches paint of him in 2007 are accurate I must know him. I must be saved. It is also my opinion if this is real and not ancient mythology Jesus wants to meet me and must be working somehow behind the scenes to assist me in knowing him.

Before I can be saved I must know how others know and understand there religion is correct. I must know how someone knows Jesus is real and the boogie man is not. I must know how someone knows Jesus is real and Thor is not. I must know how someone knows Jesus is real and Allah is not. I am not looking for personal opinions. This issue is too important to be based on personal opinion alone. Hard evidence is demanded in ever other sphere of out lives. A psychologist or doctor who told us a pill would extend our lives or enlarge our penises we would demand proof and evidence. For some reason religion is the only taboo topic that is off limits to critique and a necessity to clearly demonstrate with logical evidence it is true. This blows my frick’n mind. Again, I offer more about who I am so no one can accuse me of being misleading.

I apologize for not quoting properly - you did call me out on this once before. I am not very good at articulating my thoughts to paper. Nor am I terribly internet savvy. I feel much more can be accomplished face to face. However, I opted to be here and you allow me to stay. I will do my best to learn the INs and OUTs of posting on this forum.

I am receptive to speaking with anyone on the phone to address or answer my concerns or meeting in paper. I will gladly give out my personal information in PM at my risk.

If I violated any rules and an apology is not acceptable to mend my evil deeds I shall accept the closing of my thread - although I know it is crap.
I do not wish to digress from my original message. I wish to pick up with my last questions from there. If anyone has any questions or concerns with what I have said here address them in Private

--Tony

Contents should have been in Moderation Thread.

Edited by AdminPD, : If you must view the contents use the peek button.

We are born, we live then we die.

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macaroniandcheese

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Message 85 of 93 (362547)
11-08-2006 2:49 AM

Reply to: Message 1 by PurpleTeddyBear
10-23-2006 1:30 AM

coming to this topic a little late in the game to give you unhelpful answers

What is a relationship with Jesus like?

it's basically like having an idea of someone else who helps to guide you in your actions and thoughts. it's somewhat between having your head invaded by aliens and having your best friend part of your mind. it doesn't change who you are, or necessarily what you do, but it leads me to hope even though i want to give up.

How does one know this relationship is real?

a sane person doesn't. you just live with it. i question it every day.

Is knowing Jesus anything more than a feeling - how so?

i have no idea. i've "known jesus" almost my whole life and longer than i can remember. there are no neon signs, if you're wondering.

I've never known Jesus. I'd like to know how to recognize the feelings that clearly demonstrate to you Jesus is real.

there aren't any. i simply believe and try not to fall off the deep end. i don't believe even because i want to. i believe because i have to. i am drawn to him. there's nothing i can do about it. i fight it, a lot. it's probably the most confusing and difficult part of my life.

Is it the opinion of the faithful I block out these feelings, fail to acknowledge them or am unable to possess them?

*shrugs* maybe you don't have them. maybe you haven't been called. maybe you just haven't heard. maybe you've simply blocked them out. also, maybe you follow them and don't know it. it's not my call.

for me, being in the company of my god means caring for the world. it doesn't mean joining a convent or even not cussing. it means loving, giving, and sharing.

Why can you know Jesus and not me?

i don't know. i was raised to believe in predestined salvation, but now i don't even believe in hell. i believe that i serve an omnipotent god. he has a plan and we all have a part to play. if we are predestined to a certain role in life, why would serving that purpose doom us? i can't justify that.

Why has Jesus allowed you to have a relationship with him and not me? If Jesus has accepted me and entered into a relationship with me I have not seen it. I have not felt it. I have not heard it. I have no evidence it exists. Am I doing something wrong? I do not think I am bad.

see above.

My daughter is 8 - she does not know Jesus. Jesus has never reached out to her - why not? My son is 12; he does not live with me. His mother took him 1,500 miles away from me. She is religious. My son he knows Jesus. Why does Jesus talk to my son not my daughter?

maybe she does but doesn't know him by name.

In order to know Jesus I must know what to look for. I must know where to look and how to find him. The only time I had a friend I could not see was when I was 6. I feel kind of foolish entering into another relationship like this - is this feeling justified?

probably not. i have no idea. i'm sure i'm just crazy. but it doesn't matter.

How do you know you know Jesus? How do you know your children know they know Jesus? Can you help me know Jesus knows me? Is it ok to know something I can not heae, see, smell, touch or taste? Is it ok to say I know I know something even if I know in this lifetime I will never have evidence to demonstrate the claims I claim to know are true - other than me stating I know it is true.

can i say for certain that the external world exists beyond my perception of it? can i be sure that i am not mistaken? no. it is one of the most difficult philosophical questions. but. i trust that the people i am in contact with exist (sometimes. i have trust issues.) likewise, i trust the drawing power within my soul.

What I really want to know is how do you know you know Jesus? How do you form a relationship for something that is 'not there'(I use that loosely). How do you know Jesus loves you - what does this feel like?

i know that i am taken care of. great ill does not befall me. that which does i am able to champion. i generally get what i want. of course it almost always ends up not being what i want but the process makes me better and wiser. i know the power that i feel pulling me toward hope in spite of my desire for despair.

i'd like to say that i feel a pull to compassion (or whatever else christians are supposed to feel) that comes from outside myself, but i am naturally a giving and compassionate person. it's not anything i did, i just came out that way.

*How do you know Jesus loves you? When compared to love we know what does the love of Jesus feel like. I am missing it and want to recognize it.

i don't. but i feel hope and comfort and i am always aware that everything is forgiven. i have no guilt. this is the love of my god to me.

*How do we know this is real - this feeling, emotion; this “THING” that makes us (you) know you know Jesus.

i don't. i could just be a sociopath. i mean. i know i am a sociopath because i'm a very detached individual, but i mean a real whacko.

there's nothing i can do about it. that's what makes me feel like it is external to me. i can push it away and deny it and it comes back and enforces itself.

Edited by AdminPD, : Fix quote box

This message is a reply to:
	Message 1 by PurpleTeddyBear, posted 10-23-2006 1:30 AM		PurpleTeddyBear has not replied

purpledawn

Member (Idle past 3479 days)

Posts: 4453

From: Indiana

Joined: 04-25-2004

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Message 86 of 93 (362581)
11-08-2006 7:04 AM

Reply to: Message 1 by PurpleTeddyBear
10-23-2006 1:30 AM

Knowing Jesus

You can get to know Jesus the same way you get to know any person who is no longer physically alive. You read what was written about him. The Book of Mark in the Bible is the first bio written about Jesus and was written over 30 years after his death. Reading a book on the history of Christianity and/or the history of the Jews will help you understand what was going on in the world during the first century when Jesus was alive and when Christianity developed.

quote:
Why has Jesus allowed you to have a relationship with him and not me? If Jesus has accepted me and entered into a relationship with me I have not seen it. I have not felt it. I have not heard it. I have no evidence it exists. Am I doing something wrong? I do not think I am bad.

Just as it is difficult to have a relationship with a person who doesn't really want to have a relationship with you, it will be difficult for you to have the relationship Christians have with Jesus unless you want to go through the Christian teachings associated with understanding and learning about Jesus. You have to truly want the relationship. It is part of the religion. You have to allow yourself to have the relationship, not Jesus.

quote:
My daughter is 8 - she does not know Jesus. Jesus has never reached out to her - why not? My son is 12; he does not live with me. His mother took him 1,500 miles away from me. She is religious. My son he knows Jesus. Why does Jesus talk to my son not my daughter?

Your son knows Jesus because his mother has taught him the Christian tenets or has taken him to Church for religious training. You haven't done that with your daughter. Even though you can know God through other religions, knowing Jesus is part of the Christian religion.

quote:
What I really want to know is how do you know you know Jesus? How do you form a relationship for something that is 'not there'(I use that loosely). How do you know Jesus loves you - what does this feel like?

If you're not a Christian or haven't been through Christian training, then you won't know Jesus as the Christians describe. Although many Christians would argue with me, you aren't forming a relationship with something that isn't there. IMO, you're forming a relationship with yourself.

quote:
How do we know this is real - this feeling, emotion; this “THING” that makes us (you) know you know Jesus.

How do you know you're in love? It's all about inner peace.

Bottom line: You can read about Jesus and understand his teachings, but you can't feel the emotional impact of the religion if you don't practice the religion. Knowing Jesus as the Christians describe it is part of that emotional impact.

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

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	Message 1 by PurpleTeddyBear, posted 10-23-2006 1:30 AM		PurpleTeddyBear has not replied

riVeRraT

Member (Idle past 438 days)

Posts: 5788

From: NY USA

Joined: 05-09-2004

riVeRraT Posts Only

Message 87 of 93 (365431)
11-22-2006 2:46 PM

Reply to: Message 1 by PurpleTeddyBear
10-23-2006 1:30 AM

Not religion, God

What is a relationship with Jesus like?

Pretty cool, sometimes demanding, enlightening, not much different than real life, mostly what you make of it.

How does one know this relationship is real?

Acts 1:8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth."

I never understood that verse, until I felt what I believe to be the Holy spirit. Jesus left, but sent the Hoyl Spirit to be a guide in our lives. The verse says you will be a witness.

Is knowing Jesus anything more than a feeling - how so?

A feeling, and tons of subjective evidences, that seem to defy all odds. Sometimes visions. For some people it can be open eyed visions, or audible words (not for me yet) I have had closed eyes visions, and visions of the future that came to pass. Knowing Jesus is following your heart. If it's in your heart to be an atheist, then thats ok. Just question yourself why you are. If it's because of religion, then I would question that as well.

I've never known Jesus. I'd like to know how to recognize the feelings that clearly demonstrate to you Jesus is real.

Maybe you do know Jesus, but you have just convinced yourself, or the world has convinced you that He isn't real. If your mind is closed, and your heart is hardened, then God will even make you stay that way. either way, I believe you are forgiven.

Is it the opinion of the faithful I block out these feelings, fail to acknowledge them or am unable to possess them?

Yes, and that is what I experienced as well. I am a bit thick headed, and God really had to knock on my door before I completely acknowledged Him. That doesn't make me a saint or anything, in fact it makes my life even more challenging. I still struggle like I did before.

Why can you know Jesus and not me?

I have a hard time with that thought as well. All I can say is, before I knew Him the way I do now, I never felt like I was going to hell, not then, and not now. Call me a heritic.

And I don't think you are bad either. I believe your questions are very heart felt. There is a desire to know god, and it is genuine. Are you mad that you feel you don't know god?

I think God waited 38 years to really show Himself to me, because everything I learned along the way, which was not interfered with by religion, can now be used for his purposes.

My daughter is 8 - she does not know Jesus.

I think there is Jesus the person, and Jesus the state of mind. I believe all children go to heaven, and your daughter does know Jesus.

Why does Jesus talk to my son not my daughter?

I too have a daughter that my ex-girlfriend took away from me. I have not a clear answer as to why. I share in your fustration. I suppose if I used the bible, one could argue that she is God's child not mine. Even though I desire her in my life, and there is much pain about it.
I have no answers for you on that one, I am asking God myself.

Oh yea. How can you follow the first commandment Jesus set forth, Love God with all your heart mind and soul, if you do not know God?

Is it ok to say I know I know something even if I know in this lifetime I will never have evidence to demonstrate the claims I claim to know are true - other than me stating I know it is true.

Well there is evidence, but it's all subjective. You can claim youlove your mother, and never really be able to prove it, only show subjective evidence.

What I really want to know is how do you know you know Jesus?

By what I feel, by everything that happens to me on a daily basis.

Through prayer.

By asking him to come into your life in a more real way. not just with your mouth, but with your heart.

This is the problem that most atheists have, is that you feel like you don't want to ommit to something that just isn't there. It's a catch 22, I guess.

How do you know Jesus loves you - what does this feel like?

Pretty darn awesome. I cannot fully put into words what I can feel. It's weird because I was never really a spiritual person, or a spacey person, so I have a tough time explaining it, and if the old self heard the new self talking, I would think I was wacked.

The theist also needs to demonstrate how this specific knowing is different than other knowings or feelings.

why would it have to be different?

But I can say this, a relationship with Jesus is an evolving one.

This message is a reply to:
	Message 1 by PurpleTeddyBear, posted 10-23-2006 1:30 AM		PurpleTeddyBear has not replied

Replies to this message:
	Message 88 by tudwell, posted 11-23-2006 8:44 PM		riVeRraT has replied

tudwell

Member (Idle past 6000 days)

Posts: 172

From: KCMO

Joined: 08-20-2006

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Message 88 of 93 (365650)
11-23-2006 8:44 PM

Reply to: Message 87 by riVeRraT
11-22-2006 2:46 PM

Re: Not religion, God

deleted

Edited by tudwell, : stupid post

This message is a reply to:
	Message 87 by riVeRraT, posted 11-22-2006 2:46 PM		riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
	Message 89 by riVeRraT, posted 11-25-2006 10:33 PM	tudwell has not replied
	Message 90 by AdminPD, posted 11-26-2006 6:36 AM	tudwell has not replied

riVeRraT

Member (Idle past 438 days)

Posts: 5788

From: NY USA

Joined: 05-09-2004

riVeRraT Posts Only

Message 89 of 93 (366004)
11-25-2006 10:33 PM

Reply to: Message 88 by tudwell
11-23-2006 8:44 PM

Re: Not religion, God

I am sorry, your response made no sense whatsoever.

This message is a reply to:
	Message 88 by tudwell, posted 11-23-2006 8:44 PM		tudwell has not replied

AdminPD

Inactive Administrator

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Message 90 of 93 (366023)
11-26-2006 6:36 AM

Reply to: Message 88 by tudwell
11-23-2006 8:44 PM

Re: Not religion, God

Tudwell,

Please do not proceed down the juvenile question path.

quote:
Oh, and by the way, does he ever leave the toilet seat up?

Please direct any comments concerning this Admin msg to the Moderation Thread.
Any response in this thread will receive a 24 hour timeout.

Thank you

This message is a reply to:
	Message 88 by tudwell, posted 11-23-2006 8:44 PM		tudwell has not replied

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