Acceptance, Evolutionists vs. Creationists

Yeah but they don't get to enjoy it as much as we do.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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However, you're giving them information that would change their outlook on things if they agree your information to be factual. Most of them will just become more liberal, but that still is changing their faith as they once knew it. At this point you seem to have good intentions, but you need to be aware of what you're doing.

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If their faith is tied to denying scientific findings, that's their problem. I don't force people to read my posts.

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I really don't care about public school and what it teaches, because none of it is stuff that I find useful. I'll quote Mark Twain on this one: I never let my schooling interfere with my education.

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Yeah, whatever kid.I suppose writing as well as you do, being able to read and do enough math to balance a checkbook are completely useless skills, right?

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School is a stupid and boring instrument used to create inteligent, but unenlightened worker bees that are forced to work in cubicles to make somebody else rich.

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Public school may be stupid and boring, but it is also illegal for religious zealots to use it to indoctrinate children to their religion.I'd be willing to bet that you would care very much what the public schools were teaching if all kids had to learn in science class that the Divine One split his thoughts into two after residing in a golden egg for a year, creating Heaven and Earth.That's the gist of the Hindu creation story.In other words, you should care a lot that religious people are trying to insert their religion into science classes in public schools. It's a real threat to religious liberty in the US.

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This 'reality' of earthly death being the end may not even be a reality,

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Really? People's bodies don't stop functioning at some point?

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and as an open-minded person with no religious belief wouldn't it be more reasonable to figure there was a possibility for an afterlife?

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The most rational and reasonable thing to conclude is that we do not know if there is an afterlife at all.We do know that living things, including people, die.OK, if you agree that death, (and the defeat of death, and the promise of everlasting life,) is an overriding theme in Christianity, why do you think that is?Why do you think that these things are so important to people, millions and millions of people for thousands and thousands of years?

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I'll say it again: Just because you don't believe in something doesn't mean you're afraid of it.

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Of course not.In this case, however, I believe that the fear of the ultimate unknown is the basis of the "everlasting life/defeat of death" theme of many religions, including and especially, Christianity.You have mostly denied this without much support for your denial.

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If I'm not mistaken you're an atheist, which is fine. But are you atheist just because you're terrified of the concept of an all-knowing, all loving God?

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Actually, I'm an Agnostic.I see no evidence for God, but I cannot rule out something due to a lack of evidence, so I remain Agnostic. I don't know.

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Most atheists I know wish they believed in one, so I'm pretty sure I know the answer.

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I used to believe when I was a child and young adult. I found I was much more content, and was a happier, more loving, accepting person as an unbeliever as I ever was as a believer. I don't feel that anything is missing from my life at all.

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Was that supposed to spook me?

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No, you frigging nitwit! (said with love...)It was supposed to illustrate Christianity's preoccupation with DEATH.

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If they wanted to freak people out (and deep down they did, no question), they should've ripped out live internal organs, preserved them in something thick and clear, and made a church out of THAT. Then maybe they'd be on the right track.

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They came close.There are the dessicated corpses of a man and an infant hung up on the wall in that chapel, supposedly cursed by the mother/wife.

Schraf, Wow, those priests are strict......Mark

as a vetran of the state of florida's public education system, i really do have to protest. public school here, is, in fact, quite useless indeed.serving on my school's advisory committee, in became very quickly evident that the state just didn't care enough to properly fund us, and often randomly shot down incentive plans for no adequately explained reason. the exams at my school were worthless (didn't affect the class grade unless you got a C), but we couldn't exempt students for good attendence, for instance.instead, we had to spend all of the school's efforts in bringing the fcat (the state test) scores up to par as a method of rating the school. the test itself was no indication of the school's functioning, because they gave it to tenth graders, not 9th and 12th graders to rate improvement. instead, we got rated on whatever the middle schools did. our funding was based on this. we did poorly, we got less money, when we needed more.school itself became about passing this test, and then the next two years were spent just filling time and moving the students along. when i explained my dismay with the education system to the vice principles and guidence counselors, they actually suggested that i drop out, take the ged, and just go to college.most of the classes repeated what we'd learned the years before, and rarely taught anything new or interesting. most of it was aimed at learning to write 5 paragraph essays (ugh) and passing tests. there were even test prep classes required, for everyone.the most in-depth classes at my school were ap, and that only went up to calc one and intro to physics, and i think enc 1101 (101 everywhere else). basically, first year college for everywhere else in the world. the really advance people were at ib magnet schools, which meant they worked their butts off, stressed out for all of high school, and graduated college two years early.but most of the students had problems just passing algebra 1.as for coverage of evolution and various creation myths, we talked about natural selection once in bio, for about a day, after discussing lamarckism and why it was wrong, and methodological naturalism.we read gilgamesh and beowulf in english, and that was about as close as we got to discussing anything remotely biblical.

"My goal is to defend science and reason, and perhaps have some small influence upon the fence-sitters, too."But whatever, I'm not argueing to give you a guilt trip. Ugh, 6th time I've been called a kid on this forum. That's annoying. Well I'm flattered that you think I write well, but most of what you listed is taught in Kindergarten. Now about the Hindu thing, I see your point in that they shouldn't be teaching religious doctrine in science class, but I'm sure the result would be nonbelievers of the doctrine just shrugging it off the way fundamentalist kids just shrug off evolution during biology class. I said the reality of earthly death being THE END might not even be a reality. Geez, maybe it was important to study those 3rd Grade reading comprehension booklets... You're hinting that you want me to answer 'why, that could only be fear of death! You're so smart, Schrafinator!'Of course even if that were my only option I'd never say it like that!
Listen, since I believe in it, I conclude that's an overriding theme because it REALLY HAPPENED and THAT'S HOW IT IS. Since I believe in it, I'm not afraid of death because it's not gonna happen. And I don't mean earthly death; you're intelligent enough to know what death I was referring to in the last paragraph. That's assuming somebody made them all up, which is fine by me if that's what you believe and even if it's how it is. Hey, if death's just ceasing to exist, at least I won't have to put up with idiots that listen to Pearl Jam and Blink 182. Okay, but I'm not sure if 'I don't know' was an answer to the question:Are you atheist because you're terrified of the concept of an all-knowing, all loving God?If it was, then alright. But if it wasn't, I'd like an answer. Why does every older atheist on here say they believed in some way similar to me when they were a 'young adult'? That's really unsettling, you know. Well it didn't do that! Just because a buncha goons couldn't make something scary centuries ago doesn't mean that every Christian is preoccupied with death. Pfft! See, it's not my fault if a particular group of earlier Christians had weak chi. Apparently the awesomeness train didn't stop for them... and went straight for ME!

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Wanna feel God? Step onto the wrestling mat and you'd be crazy to deny the uplifting spirit.

ROFL.Even if christians are preoccupied with death, Christ seems to have been preoccupied with life. In that he is the truth, the way and the LIFE.

I'm sorry to hear about your school system. I've got to tell you, though, the the public school system I came up in was really pretty good. It is in a pretty rich county, you see. While it definitely had problems (I thought for my entire childhood that I was a complete idiot in math, only to find out as an adult that my math ability is fine, I just learn it VERY differently than the way it's usually taught), in general I think they offered good skill training.We weren't tied to any state tests, of course.

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Ugh, 6th time I've been called a kid on this forum. That's annoying.

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"School is so stupid! I'll never use anything they try to teach me there!"Every kid in school or recently there says this, kid, including you it seems. Kind of puts you in that category.

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Well I'm flattered that you think I write well, but most of what you listed is taught in Kindergarten.

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Don't be silly.No, it isn't mostly learned in Kindergarten, and even if it was, Kindergarten is still public school, isn't it?

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Now about the Hindu thing, I see your point in that they shouldn't be teaching religious doctrine in science class, but I'm sure the result would be nonbelievers of the doctrine just shrugging it off the way fundamentalist kids just shrug off evolution during biology class.

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The point is, it unconstitutional and just a wrong, underhanded, sneaky thing to do.You can make up any scenario you want to assure me that it won't matter, but we know that teaching lies in school as if they are true will have the result of many children believing the lies.

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You're hinting that you want me to answer 'why, that could only be fear of death! You're so smart, Schrafinator!'

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No, I was just keenly interested in your answer to the question. I want to know the reasoning behind your answer, considering you have come to such a different conclusion.

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Of course even if that were my only option I'd never say it like that!
Listen, since I believe in it, I conclude that's an overriding theme because it REALLY HAPPENED and THAT'S HOW IT IS. Since I believe in it, I'm not afraid of death because it's not gonna happen.

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OK, I get that. You don't see your religion as having "themes" because you believe stuff really happened.So, why is the defeat of death/everlasting life after death a theme in many, many other religions?Perhaps you could also tell me why God thought that everlasting life after death for humans would be valuable to us?

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Okay, but I'm not sure if 'I don't know' was an answer to the question:Are you atheist because you're terrified of the concept of an all-knowing, all loving God?

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I'm not an atheist.

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Why does every older atheist on here say they believed in some way similar to me when they were a 'young adult'? That's really unsettling, you know.

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I'm sure it is.We're just telling the truth about our experiences. Young adulthood is where we begin to think much more independently from our parents, and we often go out into the world of ideas and are exposed to much we were sheltered from before.

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Just because a buncha goons couldn't make something scary centuries ago doesn't mean that every Christian is preoccupied with death.

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I've actually been inside that chapel of bones in Evora. It is powerfully creepy, especially the corpses on the wall.I never said that every Christian is preoccupied with death. I think it's more subtle than that I said that death and the promise of eternal life after death is a major theme of Christianity, and you agreed.So, it logically follows that Christians ARE kind of obsessed with death and the promise of an afterlife. Don't Christians work hard every day to live their lives in a Christlike way in order to get into heaven and avoid damnation in hell?I mean, the very symbol of your religion is the cross that Jesus was sacrificed upon. That is a symbol of death right there, but also a symbol of his sacrifice for all mankind so that we could have eternal life after death.

Okay, fine. I didn't say I disagreed with you, did I? I just said I doubt that many people would buy it. No, I didn't say that. I was using myself as an example to try to finally convey my point successfully, to apparently no effect. No doubt it has themes, and since I'm not creationist(who, if you remember, are the ones I'm sticking up for in the first place)
I don't believe every event in the Bible was factual. But whatever, just because it has a theme of conquering death doesn't mean people are afraid of death; like I said, just because they don't believe in it doesn't mean they're afraid of it.Oh, and for the third time: Okay, fine. You're agnostic, I get it. Since you've twice said that to apparently avoid the question, I implore you to answer the 'corrected' version of this question:Are you agnostic, which would imply you have doubts about the existence of the metaphysical, because you're terrified of the concept of an all-knowing, all loving God?This time just answer yes or no, please. Another symptom of weak chi: Being impressed, frightened, or otherwise moved by the creations of other people with weak chi. You really need to get a refill. What the hell?! Please, just because I'm Theistic and believe in the Christian God doesn't mean I'm the authority on what the Bible says. But in this case I'll remind you:Saved by grace, not by deeds. I'm not here to argue the questionable morality of that etc., that's a whole new thread. But that's what it says. Well, yeah. And? If Jesus was shanked, I'm pretty sure the symbol WOULD be a prison shiv, if you're going to ask if any execution symbol would be used to symbolize Christianity. However, it seems God has better taste because a cross looks so much better than a shank, which says a lot because shanks rule.But just because Christianity and many other religions have the theme of 'conquering death' if you will doesn't mean they're any less true or that their believers are afraid of earthly death being the end with no afterlife. Don't make me repeat The Phrase again.This message has been edited by Born2Preach, 06-15-2004 02:20 PM

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Wanna feel God? Step onto the wrestling mat and you'd be crazy to deny the uplifting spirit.

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Are you agnostic, which would imply you have doubts about the existence of the metaphysical, because you're terrified of the concept of an all-knowing, all loving God?

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No, I'm not, but it's not a similar issue.We know people die. Regardless of one's religious convictions, people die, and everybody knows this. Everybody.Also, nobody knows what happens after death.I think we all fear death as a condition of being human.However, not everybody believes in the same God/gods, or any supernatural entity at all. So, you can't compare humanity's collective knowledge that we are someday going to die and the fear that goes with it to some people's non-belief or uncertainty of the supernatural.

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Another symptom of weak chi: Being impressed, frightened, or otherwise moved by the creations of other people with weak chi. You really need to get a refill.

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Yeah, yeah, whatever little big man.Gee, you must be fun to be with in an art museum, scoffing at people having emotional reactions to paintings and sculpture.In general, I don't think continuing this discussion will be productive, because you just flat out refuse to defend your position with anything other than "No it isn't!"The fear of the unknown of what happens after death is a major theme of religions, philosopies, etc. all over the world, and has been since civilization began. It seems that just about everybody else in the world agrees that this is true except you.

Sorry to go against the wind here, but I am also under the impression that our belief is not because of our fear of death.I myself find the idea of being a spirit entity, very frightening. Infact, the idea of ghosts gets me very scared. I just don't even want to look when I pop my clogs. I am far more afraid of an afterlife, than simply having a kip on a slab.Ceasing to exist? --> I wish.This message has been edited by mike the wiz, 06-16-2004 08:10 PM

That's why I plan to live forever, and I don't care if I have to clone myself a google times or put myself on ice. That gives me an idea. I'll clone myself 6 billion times and voila we have a race of Lams to take over the world.

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The Laminator

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I said:Are you agnostic, which would imply you have doubts about the existence of the metaphysical, because you're terrified of the concept of an all-knowing, all loving God? The other issue, for those who lost track, is the question: Does one believe in the afterlife because they're afraid of ceasing to exist?It's quite similar, actually. You put one point quite well: Okay, so it's an unknown, so a person supposedly chooses to believe in one possibility for fear of the other.Everybody here knows that this life is some form of reality. Everybody. Whether or not a God is orchestrating it we'll probably never know for sure in this life no matter what one believes. So one could choose to, for example, not believe that a God is orchestrating this existence(being one possibility), for fear of the alternative possibility that "He's got the whole world in His hands".Hopefully that illustrates the parallelism? For crying out loud, you actually took me seriously?! Look, I don't think that a church made of bones is very creepy, but I don't REALLY think that they made it JUST TO SCARE PEOPLE or that because of their failure of an objective they did not have they have weak chi. I don't believe you have weak chi for being moved by it. I don't believe in chi. I'm NOT BEING SERIOUS. I'm sorry, but with all due respect I have been defending my position with more than that; just look at the first part of this post and that's defense of my point that I am defending my original point. That's kind of like when you said THE reason Christians believe is because they fear death awhile back; please think your bold statements over before you send them or at least acknowledge what you're saying is stepping real far. Ugh, for someone who doesn't like Creationists you sure love their strawman tactic. I agreed with you that afterlife is a major theme of religions. If you want me to quote myself I will, because misrepresentation is annoying. However, fear of the unknown of what happens after death is NOT the theme; do you see Jesus preaching 'be afraid for the afterlife is unknown? No.(please read the rest of this before you quote that line and make it look like I misunderstood the question)The theme is everlasting life, not fear of death. If you want to say fear of death is the CAUSE of that theme, then you have a case. Yes, I know you said that already but since you put that fear of death is the 'Big Theme' I had to correct you.And since you want me to provide some kind of evidence to the "We don't fear no afterlife", I'll acknowledge that. There's me, there's The Wiz, and I'm sure a lot more. I hope you're not going to expect me to take a friggin survey or something, but as it stands the two believers who have participated here(Mike and yours truly) have both stated that fear of death is NOT why we believe; no, it's not even a part of it.This message has been edited by Born2Preach, 06-17-2004 01:10 AM

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Wanna feel God? Step onto the wrestling mat and you'd be crazy to deny the uplifting spirit.

I fully endorse this braveheart strategy. I am sure that we will LAMent.