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Author Topic:   Great religious falsehoods
Alasdair
Member (Idle past 5750 days)
Posts: 143
Joined: 05-13-2005


Message 16 of 106 (471797)
06-18-2008 10:25 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by jag
06-15-2008 10:18 AM


The problem with trying to scientifically test God is that a scientific claim needs to be falsifiable in order to be science.
If there wasn't an omnipotent God, what would we expect to see in our Universe? How would we know the difference from a universe with an omnipotent God? How can we test this?
I don't think that you can come up with good testable, falsifiable predictions about an omnipotent being - as He could get around any test!
This is why God cannot be scientifically tested.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by jag, posted 06-15-2008 10:18 AM jag has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by jag, posted 06-18-2008 11:11 AM Alasdair has replied

jag
Member (Idle past 5754 days)
Posts: 41
Joined: 06-15-2008


Message 17 of 106 (471799)
06-18-2008 10:36 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by iano
06-18-2008 6:09 AM


Hello iano,
I would like to respond to several points in your post, but I am striving to kept things as simple as I can.
jag writes:
The result: there is no evidence that there is any god like entity imposing any effect upon this world or universe.
iano writes:
No evidence acceptable to Science you can only mean.
Can you provide any substantial evidence in support of a god that exists and is causing any effect upon this world?
Let us not get into a debate about the definition of substantial evidence. That is often just a method of dodging the question. Post what you think is substantial.
State an effect you have seen and state what you think caused the effect, the originating agent. Then provide your statement of evidence showing that the agent was indeed the cause of the effect.
In other words, what did god do, and why do you think he did it?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by iano, posted 06-18-2008 6:09 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by iano, posted 06-19-2008 9:22 AM jag has replied

jag
Member (Idle past 5754 days)
Posts: 41
Joined: 06-15-2008


Message 18 of 106 (471807)
06-18-2008 11:11 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by Alasdair
06-18-2008 10:25 AM


god can be tested
Hello Alasdair
Alasdair writes:
The problem with trying to scientifically test God is that a scientific claim needs to be falsifiable in order to be science.
We are in agreement. I think that part of the problem is that due to the very nature of the discussion we very often are dealing with people who are not interested in any nonsense about falsifiable conclusions. One of my current concepts is that we must put the questions in terms they are more likely to listen to and think about.
This is something I am not good at. But we only get better at what we practice. I am striving for clear simple posts with as few points as possible. If we keep the battlefield clear of all but one obstruction, we can concentration on that one item at a time.
I am certainly open to other’s opinion on this type of conversation.
God can be tested. Declare what god can do, and see if we can determine if god really did it. Example: prayer. Very testable. Always fails.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Alasdair, posted 06-18-2008 10:25 AM Alasdair has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by Alasdair, posted 06-18-2008 3:00 PM jag has replied

Alasdair
Member (Idle past 5750 days)
Posts: 143
Joined: 05-13-2005


Message 19 of 106 (471816)
06-18-2008 3:00 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by jag
06-18-2008 11:11 AM


Re: god can be tested
That wouldn't be testing God though, would it? It would be testing properties of God that even then deal with abstract concepts (maybe the prayer failing is because God felt they didn't deserve healing, etc).
By definition an omnipotent being can do anything - this means you cannot falsify Him, because He always has a way around the test! Therefore God is unfalsifiable, and is completely outside the realm of science. (Along with fairies and unicorns of course.)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by jag, posted 06-18-2008 11:11 AM jag has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by jag, posted 06-18-2008 3:12 PM Alasdair has replied
 Message 22 by jag, posted 06-18-2008 3:25 PM Alasdair has not replied

jag
Member (Idle past 5754 days)
Posts: 41
Joined: 06-15-2008


Message 20 of 106 (471818)
06-18-2008 3:12 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Alasdair
06-18-2008 3:00 PM


Re: god can be tested
alasdair writes:
Therefore God is unfalsifiable, and is completely outside the realm of science.
You claim god is outside the realm of science. That is the whole point here. You have absolutely no justiciation to make that claim! None what so ever! If you think you do, show it.
Just to pre-empt and argument: The bible is nothing but words on paper. It is not evidence of anything at all. It is evidence only that it was written, and that is has been copied over and over with a huge number of mistakes. Indeed, biblical scholar Bart D. Ehrman wrote in his book "Misquoting Jesus" that there are more errors in the various copies of the new testemant than were are words in it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Alasdair, posted 06-18-2008 3:00 PM Alasdair has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by Alasdair, posted 06-18-2008 3:18 PM jag has replied

Alasdair
Member (Idle past 5750 days)
Posts: 143
Joined: 05-13-2005


Message 21 of 106 (471819)
06-18-2008 3:18 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by jag
06-18-2008 3:12 PM


Re: god can be tested
God is not falsifiable. You cannot prove God wrong. This means that God is untestable. This means that God is completely 100% outside the realm of science.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by jag, posted 06-18-2008 3:12 PM jag has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by jag, posted 06-18-2008 3:27 PM Alasdair has replied

jag
Member (Idle past 5754 days)
Posts: 41
Joined: 06-15-2008


Message 22 of 106 (471822)
06-18-2008 3:25 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Alasdair
06-18-2008 3:00 PM


Re: god can be tested
alasdair writes:
(maybe the prayer failing is because God felt they didn't deserve healing, etc).
Do you have any example of documented or verifiable instances where prayer was shown to heal anyone? There have been numerous tests, and all fail. That says that god never decides anyone should be healed.
Indeed, if god exists, then god caused us to need healing in the first place. Nice guy. (Just in case, read that with extreme sarcasm.
Why did he create us so that we need healing. As he knows everything, that must have been an intentional act on his part.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Alasdair, posted 06-18-2008 3:00 PM Alasdair has not replied

jag
Member (Idle past 5754 days)
Posts: 41
Joined: 06-15-2008


Message 23 of 106 (471823)
06-18-2008 3:27 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Alasdair
06-18-2008 3:18 PM


Re: god can be tested
You failed to provide your justification. How do you justify that statement. You claim it, you prove it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Alasdair, posted 06-18-2008 3:18 PM Alasdair has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by Alasdair, posted 06-18-2008 3:36 PM jag has replied

Alasdair
Member (Idle past 5750 days)
Posts: 143
Joined: 05-13-2005


Message 24 of 106 (471825)
06-18-2008 3:36 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by jag
06-18-2008 3:27 PM


Re: god can be tested
Which statement of these two of mine do you disagree with:
1) As an omnipotent being, God can get around every test, and is therefore unfalsifiable - you cannot prove he doesn't exist.
2) Falsifiability is a requirement for testability which is a requirement for scientific inquiry.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by jag, posted 06-18-2008 3:27 PM jag has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by jag, posted 06-18-2008 3:47 PM Alasdair has replied
 Message 26 by bluegenes, posted 06-18-2008 3:51 PM Alasdair has not replied

jag
Member (Idle past 5754 days)
Posts: 41
Joined: 06-15-2008


Message 25 of 106 (471829)
06-18-2008 3:47 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by Alasdair
06-18-2008 3:36 PM


Re: god can be tested
alasdair writes:
1) As an omnipotent being, God can get around every test, and is therefore unfalsifiable - you cannot prove he doesn't exist.
I don't see any cause to believe that there is any supernatural being that you call god. Much less that he is omnipotent, omsiescent, etc. Now what so ever.
You claim it, you show it.
Falsifiability is a requirement for testability which is a requirement for scientific inquiry.
I agree with that. You cannot form a testable statement about god that is falsifiable. If you do form one, it will be falsified.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Alasdair, posted 06-18-2008 3:36 PM Alasdair has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by Alasdair, posted 06-18-2008 3:52 PM jag has replied

bluegenes
Member (Idle past 2478 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 26 of 106 (471830)
06-18-2008 3:51 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by Alasdair
06-18-2008 3:36 PM


Re: god can be tested
Alasdair writes:
As an omnipotent being, God can get around every test, and is therefore unfalsifiable - you cannot prove he doesn't exist.
How can you know he's omnipotent? Where's your evidence for this?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Alasdair, posted 06-18-2008 3:36 PM Alasdair has not replied

Alasdair
Member (Idle past 5750 days)
Posts: 143
Joined: 05-13-2005


Message 27 of 106 (471831)
06-18-2008 3:52 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by jag
06-18-2008 3:47 PM


Re: god can be tested
I don't see any cause to believe that there is any supernatural being that you call god. Much less that he is omnipotent, omsiescent, etc. Now what so ever.
You claim it, you show it.
Nor do I. I'm an atheist. That has nothing to do with it.
However, the claim "There exists an omnipotent being, called God" is ultimately unfalsifiable. As He would be omnipotent, He can get around any sort of test one could attempt to impose.
You can't put something omnipotent in a box and try and test it.
Therefore, as the claim that an omnipotent being exists is unfalsifiable, it is completely unscientific - outside of the realm of science completely, along with astrology and fairies.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by jag, posted 06-18-2008 3:47 PM jag has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by jag, posted 06-18-2008 5:05 PM Alasdair has replied
 Message 29 by bluegenes, posted 06-18-2008 5:14 PM Alasdair has not replied

jag
Member (Idle past 5754 days)
Posts: 41
Joined: 06-15-2008


Message 28 of 106 (471841)
06-18-2008 5:05 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by Alasdair
06-18-2008 3:52 PM


Re: god can be tested
Nor do I. I'm an atheist. That has nothing to do with it.
Well, you did fool me.
You can't put something omnipotent in a box and try and test it.
The point about omnipotent is that there is no such thing as anything that is or can be omnipotent. If anyone suspects so, then provide the evidence. First, show that it exists. Then show that it cannot be tested.
And yes, it can be tested. All of Christianity (and other religions) believe in prayer. There has never been a successful test of prayer. Indeed, every prayer asking for anything is a test. They all fail.
The claim that it cannot be tested due of omnipotent is useless until there can be something shown to be omnipotent. One might say it’s a circular. If so, the claimant must overcome that hurdle. Not the challenger. Its not our problem, it is theirs.
Why are we debating? The point of this thread is to present a false position and ask how we can deal with it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Alasdair, posted 06-18-2008 3:52 PM Alasdair has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by Alasdair, posted 06-18-2008 8:02 PM jag has not replied

bluegenes
Member (Idle past 2478 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 29 of 106 (471843)
06-18-2008 5:14 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by Alasdair
06-18-2008 3:52 PM


Re: god can be tested
Alasdair writes:
However, the claim "There exists an omnipotent being, called God" is ultimately unfalsifiable. As He would be omnipotent, He can get around any sort of test one could attempt to impose.
You can't put something omnipotent in a box and try and test it.
That's the conventional way of looking at it, and I understand what you mean, but try this. The claim has to come from somewhere. So, we have an evidenceless claim emerging from the human mind/brain of a theist. Now, we are dealing with something that science can examine, something concrete. So, we can examine the God via the source of the claim.
This way, if the proposed God is an objective reality, then your way of thinking might apply, but if it is a subjective delusion, the other obvious possibility/probability, then we could well identify characteristics that could be used as evidence against the existence of the proposed God.
The word "proof" is a difficult one, but when there's no evidence for the existence of the proposed God, and good evidence against it, then perhaps the word proof could be used.
So, having effectively disproved the God of one nutty theist, we move on to the next.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Alasdair, posted 06-18-2008 3:52 PM Alasdair has not replied

Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 30 of 106 (471845)
06-18-2008 5:24 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by jag
06-15-2008 10:18 AM


Premises
The primary reason I believe it is false: Any thing (energy, matter, entity, etc) that causes an effect can be tested. Any action by a supposed god can and should be tested. The result: there is no evidence that there is any god like entity imposing any effect upon this world or universe.
True, in the sense of empirical testing. Perhaps it is this way intentionally.
And then you do seem to present a false dichotomy here: the absence of evidence is evidence of absence. There being no cure for AIDS doesn't negate the possibility for one, even though it is not observed.

“I know where I am and who I am. I'm on the brink of disillusionment, on the eve of bitter sweet. I'm perpetually one step away from either collapse or rebirth. I am exactly where I need to be. Either way I go towards rebirth, for a total collapse often brings a rebirth." -Andrew Jaramillo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by jag, posted 06-15-2008 10:18 AM jag has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by jag, posted 06-18-2008 6:18 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

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