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Author Topic:   Did Adam and eve really have a choice?
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 166 of 219 (248826)
10-04-2005 10:53 AM
Reply to: Message 165 by Heathen
10-04-2005 10:14 AM


Re: We meet again
Crevo writes:
Where is this evidence then? evidence that Eve ate an apple, evidence of a talking snake? evidence of a god who doesn't allow suffering and cruelty of a massive scale everyday? where is it?
Evidence of Eve eating an apple - Genesis
Evidence of a talking snake - Genesis
You've have been arguing against man having choice based on detailed examination not only of Genesis but on Biblical descriptions of God such as his omnipotence and foreknowledge. The only basis for anything you've been arguing is an interpretation of the bible. You have in arguing from it given it credence as evidence within the confines of this discussion. You have used the Bible as your evidence. Now you say it not evidence?
How can this be...??
What has suffering and cruelty to do with this discussion. It has been about free-will has it not?
Somehow the Crevolution tag has lost it's lustre.

"Jesus wept" John 11:35. It's the shortest verse in the Bible. What caused him to weep? Anothers death....

This message is a reply to:
 Message 165 by Heathen, posted 10-04-2005 10:14 AM Heathen has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 167 by Heathen, posted 10-04-2005 1:33 PM iano has replied
 Message 168 by Phat, posted 10-04-2005 4:45 PM iano has not replied

  
Heathen
Member (Idle past 1283 days)
Posts: 1067
From: Brizzle
Joined: 09-20-2005


Message 167 of 219 (248856)
10-04-2005 1:33 PM
Reply to: Message 166 by iano
10-04-2005 10:53 AM


Impartial believer? I don't think so.
iano writes:
A truly impartial observer, looking at the evidence
iano writes:
Evidence of Eve eating an apple - Genesis
Evidence of a talking snake - Genesis
A 'truely impartial' observer would not accept a 2000 year old manuscript as evidence. They would need proveable, verifiable evidence. If they believed what was in the bible at face value they would not be impartial.
iano writes:
What has suffering and cruelty to do with this discussion. It has been about free-will has it not
Yes, and this supposed Free will has brought about man's fall. I have been contending that God is responsible for the fall seeing as he controlled At least indrectly, every contributing factor to the Fall. If God is responsible for the fall he is responsible for all the suffering and cruelty in the world. as without the fall we would have remained in paradise, no?
iano writes:
Somehow the Crevolution tag has lost it's lustre.
Hoping to turn me were you?
This message has been edited by Creavolution, 10-04-2005 01:36 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 166 by iano, posted 10-04-2005 10:53 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 184 by iano, posted 10-05-2005 6:11 AM Heathen has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 168 of 219 (248901)
10-04-2005 4:45 PM
Reply to: Message 166 by iano
10-04-2005 10:53 AM


Iano and the One he knows
Notice what happens when you start questioning the person and not the topic:
Iano writes:
What has suffering and cruelty to do with this discussion. It has been about free-will has it not?
Somehow the Crevolution tag has lost it's lustre.
Why did you have to accuse creavolution of being dull? Come on, now!
He does not trust you any more! Let me ask you something, Iano.
Does understanding Genesis=understanding God?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 166 by iano, posted 10-04-2005 10:53 AM iano has not replied

  
Heathen
Member (Idle past 1283 days)
Posts: 1067
From: Brizzle
Joined: 09-20-2005


Message 169 of 219 (248935)
10-04-2005 6:59 PM
Reply to: Message 164 by Phat
10-04-2005 10:01 AM


Re: Do any of us really have a choice?
Apologies for the delay PB, missed this reply.
PB writes:
Is this your impression? If so, lets reframe to say that this is your impression of me. Lets go one on one,OK
Your assumption, not mine... but ok.
PB writes:
To whom are you asking this question? to the EvC human wisdom panel in general, or to me? And who is this battered wife? The Bride of Christ?
I am asking any Christian who can answer it satisfactorily, without ignoring the contradictions. I want to understand how a Christian can believe something like Genesis when it seems (to me) to go against any idea of a loving, Omnipotent God.
the battered wife was an analogy used in the "random God Rant' Thread, to illustrate the relationship some Christians have with God. Worship through (or as a result of) fear.
PB writes:
So if you built a human with a lotta balls and knew what that human would choose, that human really had no choice?
Not in any real sense, no. I was trying to show that if you create/design all the parameters to such an extent that you know what the outcome will be, any notion of choice is an illusion.
PB writes:
so are you saying that you assume that your designer left you no choice? What choice do you want?
Rather saying that the bible blames man(woman?) for the fall, the real culprit is God.
PB writes:
You now say If God.. ... and then you say But God chose this world
Not sure what your point is here, perhaps i should have said "God is portrayed on the one hand to be...But on the other hand He chose..."
PB writes:
Shall we continue to assert ourselves verbally?
Again, unclear on your point here. If you're attempting to have a dig at my grammar or writing skills, I'll concede, I'm an engineer, not a writer.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 164 by Phat, posted 10-04-2005 10:01 AM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 170 by jar, posted 10-04-2005 7:08 PM Heathen has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 170 of 219 (248937)
10-04-2005 7:08 PM
Reply to: Message 169 by Heathen
10-04-2005 6:59 PM


Genesis
Be glad to discuss Genesis with you if you really want to.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 169 by Heathen, posted 10-04-2005 6:59 PM Heathen has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 171 by Heathen, posted 10-04-2005 7:13 PM jar has replied

  
Heathen
Member (Idle past 1283 days)
Posts: 1067
From: Brizzle
Joined: 09-20-2005


Message 171 of 219 (248939)
10-04-2005 7:13 PM
Reply to: Message 170 by jar
10-04-2005 7:08 PM


Re: Genesis
I get the feeling from your posts we'd agree... that's no fun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 170 by jar, posted 10-04-2005 7:08 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 172 by jar, posted 10-04-2005 7:18 PM Heathen has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 172 of 219 (248940)
10-04-2005 7:18 PM
Reply to: Message 171 by Heathen
10-04-2005 7:13 PM


Re: Genesis
Oh well.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 171 by Heathen, posted 10-04-2005 7:13 PM Heathen has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 173 by Heathen, posted 10-04-2005 7:21 PM jar has replied

  
Heathen
Member (Idle past 1283 days)
Posts: 1067
From: Brizzle
Joined: 09-20-2005


Message 173 of 219 (248945)
10-04-2005 7:21 PM
Reply to: Message 172 by jar
10-04-2005 7:18 PM


Re: Genesis
feel free to give you two pen'th worth

This message is a reply to:
 Message 172 by jar, posted 10-04-2005 7:18 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 174 by jar, posted 10-04-2005 7:27 PM Heathen has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 174 of 219 (248949)
10-04-2005 7:27 PM
Reply to: Message 173 by Heathen
10-04-2005 7:21 PM


Re: Genesis
As a Christian I do think that the Genesis myth is important, but ususally misunderstood.
I think the key point is that it explains that we are supposed to know right from wrong and to try to do right. It's not a FALL but a gift.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 173 by Heathen, posted 10-04-2005 7:21 PM Heathen has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 175 by Heathen, posted 10-04-2005 7:28 PM jar has replied

  
Heathen
Member (Idle past 1283 days)
Posts: 1067
From: Brizzle
Joined: 09-20-2005


Message 175 of 219 (248950)
10-04-2005 7:28 PM
Reply to: Message 174 by jar
10-04-2005 7:27 PM


Re: Genesis
Is that pure opinion? or based on scripture?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 174 by jar, posted 10-04-2005 7:27 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 176 by jar, posted 10-04-2005 7:30 PM Heathen has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 176 of 219 (248952)
10-04-2005 7:30 PM
Reply to: Message 175 by Heathen
10-04-2005 7:28 PM


Re: Genesis
I think it is definitely based on scripture.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 175 by Heathen, posted 10-04-2005 7:28 PM Heathen has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 177 by Heathen, posted 10-04-2005 7:32 PM jar has replied

  
Heathen
Member (Idle past 1283 days)
Posts: 1067
From: Brizzle
Joined: 09-20-2005


Message 177 of 219 (248954)
10-04-2005 7:32 PM
Reply to: Message 176 by jar
10-04-2005 7:30 PM


Re: Genesis
Can you illustrate where?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 176 by jar, posted 10-04-2005 7:30 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 178 by jar, posted 10-04-2005 7:49 PM Heathen has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 178 of 219 (248960)
10-04-2005 7:49 PM
Reply to: Message 177 by Heathen
10-04-2005 7:32 PM


Re: Genesis
Sure. Let's start with the Genesis story.
In the story, stories actually because there are two of them, mankind is created, pretty much like all the other animals. But then they are tempted and eat from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. From that moment on they know, they have a responsibility to try to do what is right. But in doing that, they disobey GOD and so he punishes them, Adam & Eve, as well as the serpent. For Adam the punishment is that he'll have to work for food and shelter. For Eve it's that childbirth will be dangerous and painful. For the serpent it's slithering on the ground and that mankind will fear and hate it.
That's a classic example of a folk tale explaining life. It covers why we have to work, why childbirth was the number one killer of women, why we fear and hate serpents and why we're expected to know right from wrong.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 177 by Heathen, posted 10-04-2005 7:32 PM Heathen has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 179 by Heathen, posted 10-04-2005 7:52 PM jar has replied

  
Heathen
Member (Idle past 1283 days)
Posts: 1067
From: Brizzle
Joined: 09-20-2005


Message 179 of 219 (248961)
10-04-2005 7:52 PM
Reply to: Message 178 by jar
10-04-2005 7:49 PM


Re: Genesis
Jar writes:
It's not a FALL but a gift.
so why is hard work, pain, risk of death and a scratched up belly a gift? and where does god/the bible say it is a gift?
seems to me it was certainly meant as punishment

This message is a reply to:
 Message 178 by jar, posted 10-04-2005 7:49 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 180 by jar, posted 10-04-2005 7:55 PM Heathen has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 180 of 219 (248962)
10-04-2005 7:55 PM
Reply to: Message 179 by Heathen
10-04-2005 7:52 PM


Re: Genesis
Those are punishments for disobedience. That's in the nature of folk tales. The purpose of the story is to explain why we have to work, why we fear serpents, why childbirth often led to the death of the mother and child.
The GIFT is the knowledge of Good and Evil.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 179 by Heathen, posted 10-04-2005 7:52 PM Heathen has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 181 by Heathen, posted 10-04-2005 8:18 PM jar has replied

  
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