Tsunami: Please Explain God's Wrathful Intent

So your GOD has two tools,

1. convert a sinner,
2. kill a sinner,

yet he chooses kill.How sad.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Just a news update, both the Indonesian Catholic authority and the Indonesian Association of Churches (the umbrella organization for Protestant churches in Indonesia) today released a statement that condemn any missionary work disguised as charity for tsumai victims in Aceh. The statement has been issued after a rumor that claimed missionaries were 'rounding up and converting survivor children' cicrulated throughout Indonesia.

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Do you believe devine wrath latter day judgements are at some point in order for the planet?

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I believe that the Bible was written by a Being outside of our space/time dinemsion and so I believe what it says. The writings in the apacaliptic portions are not predictions but are news events. They are written in past tense and present tense as well as future tense. This is done to give us some idea of the scope of power that the author possesses.Unlike most of the doom and gloom style defenders of a Creator/God though, I perceive the upjcoming events as blessings. Even with the recent Tsunami, it can be explained as a natural occurance via plate tectonics and general physics. I am proporting that that mechanism is a byproduct of a machine that is malfunctioning verses the normal mode of operation as Crash Frog defends. My viewpoint requires the viewer to assume the event from a spiritual perspective guided by the Bible. His requires examination of the scientific data which is itself far easier and tangible.So why do I view the Biblical accounts of the future cataclysms as a blessing? Because according to the Bible, when they begin, there won't be any doubt as to why it is happening. They will be in a catagory so extremely different that it will leave no room for non-Biblical interpretation. The Bible states this when it reports what the inhabitants of the Earth at that time do in response to the events. So any non-believers left at that time will be forced to make a choice as to follow or rebel but there will be no doubters as to the existance in a Supreme Being at that point.The Tsunami leaves tremendous room for interpretation from the purly natural perspective as to why it happened and the spiritual perspective via Biblical reference. Was this part of God's judgement against man as some are saying?Is there some room for a natural interpretation? If the answer is Yes, then this was not a judgement from God but merely another physical expression of a broken Earth. If the answer is no, then this thread would not exist. The event explainable by physics, the cause explainable by past events in the Garden.

You've never heard of the international aid organization "Red Crescent"? You know, the Red Cross of the Muslim world? Do we? Try to get elected to politics as an open atheist. A near majority of Americans support reduced civil liberties for Muslim citizens. I remember on the news not too long ago a town was up in arms because their Muslim community wanted to erect a minaret and hold a call to prayers. Of course, the town's Christian churchbells ring every hour on the hour. You've given a number of reasons why you don't think the situation I proposed would happen, but that's not what I asked you to do. What I asked you was, if it happened that way, how would you feel? Honestly?If Islam is the violent religion of darkness you seem to think it is, how would you feel if Muslims came over to our shores to convert Americans in the most stricken and vulnerable of conditions? Answer the question this time.This message has been edited by crashfrog, 01-17-2005 12:41 AM

Buz, you said (quoting Paul) Can I ask how you expect them to hear said preacher when they're dead from starvation, dehydration and disease? You can't convert the dead!!! Don't just take my word for it, have a go. I think I can say, without fear of contradiction that you will be unable to convert a dead Muslim into a dead Christian!I don't think you mean your argument to sound like this, but it does. You seem to be suggesting that preaching is more important than feeding and clothing. From that, the tone of your messages implies that no food will be given to those that won't listen to the preacher, as you suggest that preaching comes first. Now, think back to the healing of the man on the Sabbath by Jesus and the condemnation of his actions by the Jewish powers that be. You sound more and more like the Pharisees and Sadducees with every message you write. Where is your Christian compassion? If, for a single minute I thought that Jesus would behave in the way you advocate, I'd be out there tying virgins to trees and sacrificing cockerels before you could say "Satanist".

That's the same crap that was used to justify burnings, drownings, the rack, the total destruction of cultures and civilizations.It's time that got thrown out with the dishwater.Take care of their bodies, that's what GOD commanded you to do.Throw every damn missionary out of every country in the world, replace them with engineers, doctors, nurses and construction crews and then maybe Christianity may have a chance of expanding.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Here's the English version of the press release. Translated by a Malaysian.This is the English text of a press statement released
by Muslim and Christian religious leaders at a joint
press conference on Monday, 17th January 2005 in
Jakarta.-----------------------------------------------------Interfaith Press Statement Concerning Humanitarian
Work in AcehConcerning the destructive issues that emerge around
the tragedy in Aceh, specifically news that was
reported in the Washington Post (America) dated 13th
January 2004, and the Indonesian edition that was
released in the Republika on the 14th of January 2004,
we feel the need to clarify the following points to
the public:1. Christian communities in Indonesia, specifically
PGI and KWI, reject all efforts to wrongfully use
humanitarian mission as a way of Christianizing
people. This is in direct opposition to the spirit
and teachings of true Christianity.2. We appeal to international Christian communities,
that if they wish to help children affected by the
tsunami in Aceh and North Sumatra, they should work in
collaboration with NU and Muhammadiyah, as well as
other Islamic institutions. This is an agreement
among religious leaders from PGI, KWI, NU and PP
Muhammadiyah, specifically in handling the future of
children who have suffered from the tsunami.3. We welcome the efforts of the Government in
preventing the children who have suffered from the
tsunami in Aceh from being brought out of Aceh, as
well as the efforts of the Government to prevent the
steps of WorldHelp. According to recent news in the
Washington Post, dated 14th Janury 2005, WorldHelp has
canceled their earlier plans.4. We appeal for people to use wisdom in responding
to issues that concern humanitarian work, and not be
easily caught up by rumours that have no basis.5. We hope that all polemics that are unproductive to
humanitarian work in Aceh and North Sumatra be swiftly
ended. Now is the time for us to work together to
overcome this national disaster as swiftly as
possible.May God the Creator and Guardian of Life bless our
efforts.Jakarta, 15th January 2005Jointly signed by:Pdt. Dr. Andreas A. Yewangoe (Chairperson of
Indonesian Communion of Churches)
Rm. Benny Susetyo, Pr. (Executive Secretary,
Interfaiths Commission of Indonesian Bishops'
Conference)
Prof. Dr. Ahmad Syafi'i Ma'arif (Chairperson of
Muhammadiyah)
K.H. Hasyim Muzadi (Chairperson of Nahdlatul Ulama)
Pdt. Dr. Albertus Patty
Pdt. Dr. Martin L. Sinaga
Pdt. Sylvana Ranti-Apituley, M.Th.
Pdt. Dr. Lies Mailoa-Marantika
Pdt. Dr. Robert Borong
Pdt. Ioanes Rakhmat, M.Th.
Pdt. Kuntadi Sumadikarya, M.Th.Supported by:1. MADIA (Masyarakat Dialog Antara Agama)
2. ICRP (Indonesian Conference on Religion and Peace)
3. Freedom Institute
4. YMCA (Young Men Christian Association) Indonesia
5. P3M (Pusat Pengembangan Pesantren dan Masyarakat)
6. JIL (Jaringan Islam Liberal)
7. Lakpesdam NU (Lembaga Kajian dan Pengembangan
Sumber Manusia Nahdlatul Ulama)
8. ICIP (International Center for Islam and Pluralism)
9. JPS (Jamaah Persaudaraan Sejati)
10.Wahid Institute
------------------------------------------------------

Have you ever heard of the oil for food scam, the relatively small percentage of funds given which actually reach the victims and sooo much other stuff that goes on with hands off giving? Getting elected in free nations is about getting votes. Looser ideologies, thus are, thankfully, on the bench. Preach your message and maybe you'll conjur up the votes. You've got your work cut out, thankfully. If the Muslims muster up a majority vote, they can then elect officials that will either ban church bells too or allow loudspeakers in the neighborhoods to blair out a call to worship 5 times a day. That's the way democracy works. If Muslims were not allowed to preach their religion in our nation, I would be alarmed, for that would mean we, like the Indonesians, would not enjoy freedom of speech. They, like the rest of us are subject to our laws in place via majority rule.

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In Jehovah God's Universe, time, energy and boundless space had no beginning and will have no ending. The universe, by and through him, is, has always been and forever will be intelligently designed, changed and managed by his providence. buzsaw

1. Considering the billions of dollar food for oil scam under the watch of the UN, we can't trust the UN.2. Why should Christian organizations capable of ministering aid themselves be obligated to trust Muslim organizations to use the funds to propagate Islam? Muslim organizations certainly would not do so if the tables were turned. If Christians are arrested for freedom of speech while ministering to physical needs over there, they should pull out and let Islamics do the work and pay for it themselves, imo.

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In Jehovah God's Universe, time, energy and boundless space had no beginning and will have no ending. The universe, by and through him, is, has always been and forever will be intelligently designed, changed and managed by his providence. buzsaw

You're obfuscating my position, madear. The primary purpose, of course for being there is to provide the immediate need for the destitute, even though the most importantant need is spiritual. But Christian organizations have a Biblical mandate to propagate the gospel along with humanitarian relief. As I said, you meet the immediate physical need as Jesus did, but Jesus said, "What shall it profit a man if he gain the whole world and lose his own soul, or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?" Mark 8:36

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In Jehovah God's Universe, time, energy and boundless space had no beginning and will have no ending. The universe, by and through him, is, has always been and forever will be intelligently designed, changed and managed by his providence. buzsaw

It's a two sided coin. God and Jesus advocated caring for both the spiritual and the physical. That's what most missionaries do, and certainly what the relief workers are doing with the great emphasis on the physical. 1. Tell it to the multitudes who've been blessed physically and enlightened by true Biblical Christianity.2. Hitler and Stalin's nations had all those things, didn't they? But alas, they were deprived of the Biblical spiritual which Biblical missionaries could have brought to them.

Tell it to the millions that have been killed, maimed, their civilizations destroyed, their cultures wiped out by true Biblical Christianity. What total bullshit. You Fundies always pull that old chestnut out (even though Hitler was a good Biblical Christian) when you have no other valid argument.Look, if the missionaries would simply shut up and act as GOD would like the message would get across. Unfortunately most of the Christian missionaries are the Biblical Christians, the greatest threat to Christianity that exists.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

He, being God does both.

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In Jehovah God's Universe; time, energy and boundless space had no beginning and will have no ending. The universe, by and through him, is, has always been and forever will be intelligently designed, changed and managed by his providence. buzsaw

One would think to prevent the amount of people that died in Asia at the end of 2004, from the earthquake and the Tsunami that it cause, some holy men would have been told by their God what was about to happen. For only a God could have moved 600 square mile of rock up 6 feet. To moved such a large section of land and the water that is on that land is no small feat. Only a very powerful God could do that. It is not a snap decision, since a God would know the after effects that would happen to everything else after the raised of the sea floor.Does not God Almighty of the Muslim faith speak directly to his Clerics. Did Allah not warn them again on Friday that Allah needed to shift some rock to start a new mountain range. It might be that it was decided among the Clerics that while a few Muslims would die. More infidels would. Since this event would part of the Jihad against infidels them it would be proper. That all Muslims of the faith would get 72 virgins when they went to heaven
Or maybe not.Did not God tell the Pope of Rome and his Bishops that the event would occur. In the last 6000 years has not the Jewish, then the Christian God talk to his chosen preachers. Noah was told of the great flood and was save from certain death. Did not God also consider that the Pope was a chosen one. Why did not the Pope say something during the Christmas service? Maybe the Pope did not approved of Christians going on vacation to Asia? Within the Catholic church good Christians who die in the name of the Church go to heaven, bad people go to Hell. I would say that those who died in the eyes of the Pope, since they were not good Catholics must have all been sent to Hell, with the curse of the Pope of the Catholic faith. Or maybe not.Those of the Hindu and Buddhist faith did not get the word ahead of time. Even after the earthquake that hit Indonesian should not the priests of those faiths heard the cry of their God to run. Should not the people been warn ahead of time to flee the islands that were in the path of the Tsunami.It could be that their Gods are not so powerful after all. It does not seem that with all the praying that has been done before December 26 had little effect on what happen on the 26.Could it be that the people who worship, have given their selective people God like qualities while they are just humans. Jesus went from a roaming preacher without a temple to a son of a God. Then a God himself. The Prophet Mohammad was given God like power to go to heaven and return. Buddha who was very well educated went from a philosopher to a God like person.
Hindus have many Gods and only one really powerful God, yet the silent of the up coming natural disaster was missing.Maybe Mother is right, that people want to believe in the belief that if they worship something that is not there it must be more powerful then if you can see it. That if you pray enough it will come true. If you repeat the right words in the right order then God will grant you your prayer.Afterlife2.org
4th Secretary

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4th Secretary

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Jesus went from a roaming preacher without a temple to a son of a God. Then a God himself.

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The Bible tells that Jesus was always God and never stopped being fully God when he arrived on the Earth in human form. He was a roaming preacher but he always refered to the Jewish temple as "His Father's House" and he also said that "I and the Father are one". This implies that the Temple was in fact his. The Bible never says that Jesus was "A son of a god" or "A son of God", but rather THE Son of God.The Bible never draws a chronological time line for the different transitions of Jesus. He never stopped or started being fully God. The only chronological transition is when at his baptism, his Earthly task began and so God the Father formally announces the commencement as Jesus emerges from the water.In the military, when the duty day starts, you show up in uniform. You are a full military member before the day starts and you will be one at the end of the day. But to formally begin the day's work, you assemble into formation and at a set point, the first shirt calls the flight to attention. It's at this point in the beginning of the duty day that the mission for the day is begun. But no change in status has taken place amoung the military members. Everyone is just as much a member of the military before, during and after the call to attention.This is somewhat the purpose of the baptism of Jesus and the Father's proclaimation of it to the witnesses there as is recorded in the Gospel accounts.