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Author Topic:   Evidence for God
Open MInd
Member (Idle past 1254 days)
Posts: 261
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 166 of 213 (482906)
09-18-2008 6:58 PM
Reply to: Message 165 by Agobot
09-18-2008 6:38 PM


Re: A plea
You are a sad individual and you are making no point at all. You are entitled to your beliefs, but you are not making any valid arguments. Furthermore, I consider your posts to be as amusing as you probably consider my posts. Try to think of it that way. As absurd as you may think Theism is, that is how absurd I consider Atheism to be. Your arguments are complete mockery in my eyes. I have already explained exactly what science is all about. They do not find any actual truth, but they find patterns in the world and give these patterns names. Everything that exists in the world is either shown to fit with some pattern or it is just considered so complicated that it has not been solved at this point in time. Scientists see a moon and they hypothesize that it was a result of something that crashed into earth. This is not very sophisticated at all if you ask me. Why don't the scientists start by figuring out the cause of lightning and thunder? I would first explain the present world before making up fancy stories about what happened in the past.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 165 by Agobot, posted 09-18-2008 6:38 PM Agobot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 167 by DrJones*, posted 09-18-2008 7:54 PM Open MInd has replied
 Message 168 by Agobot, posted 09-19-2008 6:19 AM Open MInd has not replied
 Message 170 by Huntard, posted 09-19-2008 8:27 AM Open MInd has not replied

  
DrJones*
Member
Posts: 2284
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 6.8


Message 167 of 213 (482916)
09-18-2008 7:54 PM
Reply to: Message 166 by Open MInd
09-18-2008 6:58 PM


Re: A plea
Why don't the scientists start by figuring out the cause of lightning and thunder?
You think scientists don't know what causes thunder and lighting? May I ask what century you're living in?

soon I discovered that this rock thing was true
Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil
Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet
All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world
And so there was only one thing I could do
Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry

Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan
Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On
*not an actual doctor

This message is a reply to:
 Message 166 by Open MInd, posted 09-18-2008 6:58 PM Open MInd has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 174 by Open MInd, posted 09-19-2008 1:31 PM DrJones* has not replied

  
Agobot
Member (Idle past 5530 days)
Posts: 786
Joined: 12-16-2007


Message 168 of 213 (482945)
09-19-2008 6:19 AM
Reply to: Message 166 by Open MInd
09-18-2008 6:58 PM


Re: A plea
OpenMInd writes:
You are a sad individual and you are making no point at all. You are entitled to your beliefs, but you are not making any valid arguments. Furthermore, I consider your posts to be as amusing as you probably consider my posts. Try to think of it that way. As absurd as you may think Theism is, that is how absurd I consider Atheism to be. Your arguments are complete mockery in my eyes. I have already explained exactly what science is all about. They do not find any actual truth, but they find patterns in the world and give these patterns names. Everything that exists in the world is either shown to fit with some pattern or it is just considered so complicated that it has not been solved at this point in time. Scientists see a moon and they hypothesize that it was a result of something that crashed into earth. This is not very sophisticated at all if you ask me. Why don't the scientists start by figuring out the cause of lightning and thunder? I would first explain the present world before making up fancy stories about what happened in the past.
Apperantly I shouldn't be sad as you've found at last evidence of the existence of the Almighty - the thunder and lightning. Let me pop the Champagne, let's celebrate the eternal life. I am no longer a sad individual, the human race has a higher purpose. Cheers!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 166 by Open MInd, posted 09-18-2008 6:58 PM Open MInd has not replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 169 of 213 (482950)
09-19-2008 7:32 AM
Reply to: Message 164 by Open MInd
09-18-2008 6:14 PM


Re: Actually Getting Back On-Topic
Your evidence that Samuel wrote Judges is what exactly?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 164 by Open MInd, posted 09-18-2008 6:14 PM Open MInd has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 173 by Open MInd, posted 09-19-2008 1:24 PM Brian has replied

  
Huntard
Member (Idle past 2295 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 170 of 213 (482953)
09-19-2008 8:27 AM
Reply to: Message 166 by Open MInd
09-18-2008 6:58 PM


Re: A plea
Open MInd writes:
Why don't the scientists start by figuring out the cause of lightning and thunder?
Because everybody knows thunder and lightning are made by the Mighty Thor! So there is no need to delve into it deeper. And don;t try to put this on your phony god either, all hail the Mighty Thor!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 166 by Open MInd, posted 09-18-2008 6:58 PM Open MInd has not replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 171 of 213 (482956)
09-19-2008 8:59 AM
Reply to: Message 153 by Open MInd
09-18-2008 12:10 AM


Re: Actually Getting Back On-Topic
Open Mind writes:
Unlike Christianity, there is no such thing as blind faith in Judaism.
This is news to me! I don't recall seeing anything in the Bible that says faith need be blind. Indeed I have read it and experienced it to be quite the opposite. Hebrews 11: 1 (KJV) for example;
quote:
Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen
-
There is an obligation to know G-d, not just to believe that a god may hypothetically exist.
There's a conclusion that should be drawn from the following passage in which Paul addresses Christians in Ephesus. I've bolded one word to give you a handy clue.
quote:
15For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, 16I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. 17I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the Spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better.
-
The way to fulfill the commandment of knowing G-d is by removing as much bias from the mind as possible. This is done by not leading a ic life, and instead searching for the truth.
Before setting off on your journey and in order to make sure you weren't embarking on a wild goose chase, you'd want to have found out that the God exists - in order to make it plausible that such a commandment was actually issued by him.
How does one go about finding out that he does?
Or are you suggesting folk just set off on the assumption that God exists and issued this commandment? Which would be act of blind faith on their part.
Edited by iano, : No reason given.
Edited by iano, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by Open MInd, posted 09-18-2008 12:10 AM Open MInd has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 172 by Modulous, posted 09-19-2008 9:51 AM iano has replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 172 of 213 (482963)
09-19-2008 9:51 AM
Reply to: Message 171 by iano
09-19-2008 8:59 AM


Seemingly Going Off -Topic, veering back on course
This is news to me! I don't recall seeing anything in the Bible that says faith need be blind
Faith doesn't need to be blind. But blind faith is in the Bible. For example, faith as you say is the evidence of things 'not seen'. After all, Hebrews 11 then lists a bunch of examples of faith. "By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet {built the ark}", "By faith Abraham...obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.", these are all what would be called 'blind' faith. They did it without question, without knowing exactly why they did it or what was to happen or why.
Also, 2 Corinthians 5:6-7
quote:
Therefore [we are] always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
(For we walk by faith, not by sight
But of course you'll disagree, they didn't have blind faith in God - he spoke to many of them personally!. But then Jesus did give his personal blessings to those who believe 'blindly'. I shouldn't need to cite it, everyone knows "blessed [are] they that have not seen, and [yet] have believed. "
And semantics aside, most people would colloquially refer to this as 'blind faith' and this is the kind of thing people refer to when they say 'blind faith'. It's not that Abraham had no reason to do what he did: he just didn't know why he was meant to do it exactly or what the consequence of following through with it were. He did it, blind to the ramifications because he had 'faith' in God.
Then again, a power that can destroy the walls of Jericho, move mountains, give prophecy, cause a man to take his son to be sacrificed is a power that mere words have an difficult job overcoming. As it is said, Faith is a shield or breastplate: it renders its wearers practically immune from argument.
This also renders OM's assertion that there is no 'blind faith' in Judaism absurd. There is some blind faith in all three Abrahamic religions.
Before setting off on your journey and in order to make sure you weren't embarking on a wild goose chase, you'd want to have found out that the God exists - in order to make it plausible that such a commandment was actually issued by him.
How does one go about finding out that he does?
Any ideas? Other than internal feelings which you have put forward as a possible line of evidence (with all its associated problems), is there any other evidences that YHWH is the one?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 171 by iano, posted 09-19-2008 8:59 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 175 by Open MInd, posted 09-19-2008 1:35 PM Modulous has not replied
 Message 208 by iano, posted 09-22-2008 4:23 AM Modulous has replied

  
Open MInd
Member (Idle past 1254 days)
Posts: 261
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 173 of 213 (482993)
09-19-2008 1:24 PM
Reply to: Message 169 by Brian
09-19-2008 7:32 AM


Re: Actually Getting Back On-Topic
Before I do this, please provide evidence that you typed this message. Also, please provide evidence that anyone wrote any book in the world. There is no way of providing evidence of who wrote what book. Some people do not believe William Shakespeare actually wrote all of the brilliant plays that are ascribed to him. And you know what, nobody can prove it otherwise. Think about how it is possible to give evidence of any individual author. Then I will try to give you some of that evidence.
Just to remind you, I said that the author of the book of Judges is Samuel the prophet, and this is known through the oral tradition that is documented in the Talmud.
Edited by Open MInd, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 169 by Brian, posted 09-19-2008 7:32 AM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 177 by Brian, posted 09-19-2008 2:19 PM Open MInd has replied

  
Open MInd
Member (Idle past 1254 days)
Posts: 261
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 174 of 213 (482994)
09-19-2008 1:31 PM
Reply to: Message 167 by DrJones*
09-18-2008 7:54 PM


Re: A plea
Please explain the scientific explanation for thunder and give me the reason why this explanation is satisfactory. Also, please add the previous theories that were accepted up until recently, and explain why they are not accepted anymore.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 167 by DrJones*, posted 09-18-2008 7:54 PM DrJones* has not replied

  
Open MInd
Member (Idle past 1254 days)
Posts: 261
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 175 of 213 (482995)
09-19-2008 1:35 PM
Reply to: Message 172 by Modulous
09-19-2008 9:51 AM


Re: Seemingly Going Off -Topic, veering back on course
So if G-d will actually talk to you and tell you to build an ark, would you be doing it with "blind" faith? I was only asserting that the knowledge of G-d's existence should not be based on blind faith.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 172 by Modulous, posted 09-19-2008 9:51 AM Modulous has not replied

  
Open MInd
Member (Idle past 1254 days)
Posts: 261
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 176 of 213 (483000)
09-19-2008 1:59 PM
Reply to: Message 156 by Modulous
09-18-2008 2:43 AM


Re: Actually Actually Getting Back On-Topic
Modulous writes:
OK, so what testimony? The testimony recorded in Exodus does not count, so what testimony do you refer to?
I am explaining to you that every observant Jew around today is giving testimony that the Torah is authentic. This is the testimony that I was referring to, and I thought I made this point clearly. Other, religions have testimony to their books as well. However, other religions are only testifying to a man that wrote their books years ago. If all religions are more or less testifying to about a book that was written by one person, it is easily believed that this person did actually write the book. However, the author could still have been lying. The Jews, on the other hand, are testifying to a book that was accepted by 600,000 people who all believed that they had heard the voice of G-d. Therefore, there is testimony by all of the Jewish people that supports the stories written in the Torah. It is also interesting to add that the Jewish people are always zealous about having a tradition behind everything. If you have ever read the Talmud, you would have seen that anything that does not have a clear tradition is not considered to be known. Jews question everything, and no rules are followed without a clear tradition. Special precautions are made with regard to certain laws in order to prevent a passerby from thinking that the rule is one way and not the other. Asserting that a tradition such as this one must have been altered is completely baseless.
As I said to other people here, I am giving evidence not proof. If G-d does exist, the world is evidence of his existence. It is like you doing anything with your life. Every mark that you leave on the world is evidence of your existence. Although it will be almost impossible for anyone to show that the evidence belongs to you, it does not alter the idea that you have left evidence. I am making a similar argument with regard to everything that exists and G-d.
Also, checkup some of your history of Hinduism before using it as an example.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 156 by Modulous, posted 09-18-2008 2:43 AM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 179 by Granny Magda, posted 09-19-2008 2:36 PM Open MInd has replied
 Message 189 by Modulous, posted 09-19-2008 4:03 PM Open MInd has replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 177 of 213 (483003)
09-19-2008 2:19 PM
Reply to: Message 173 by Open MInd
09-19-2008 1:24 PM


Re: Actually Getting Back On-Topic
Before I do this, please provide evidence that you typed this message. Also, please provide evidence that anyone wrote any book in the world. There is no way of providing evidence of who wrote what book. Some people do not believe William Shakespeare actually wrote all of the brilliant plays that are ascribed to him. And you know what, nobody can prove it otherwise. Think about how it is possible to give evidence of any individual author. Then I will try to give you some of that evidence.
You have just proved my point.
We don't know who wrote ANY of the books on the Tanakh, this is a fact.
But there are many clues within the text that demonstrates that most of the books are the product of more than one person and have been edited and redacted many times.
Just to remind you, I said that the author of the book of Judges is Samuel the prophet, and this is known through the oral tradition that is documented in the Talmud.
You would be more accurate if you said that it is BELIEVED that Samuel wrote the book of Judges, and that the Talmud also CLAIMS that he did, although the Talmud is just basically parroting the Tanakh and is in no way a critical analysis of anything.
Tradition is a wonderful thing, but all it proves is that there is a tradition, nothing else.
Using one fairytale book to support another fairytale book really isn't that convincing an argument.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 173 by Open MInd, posted 09-19-2008 1:24 PM Open MInd has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 178 by Open MInd, posted 09-19-2008 2:29 PM Brian has replied

  
Open MInd
Member (Idle past 1254 days)
Posts: 261
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 178 of 213 (483004)
09-19-2008 2:29 PM
Reply to: Message 177 by Brian
09-19-2008 2:19 PM


Re: Actually Getting Back On-Topic
Actually, what I have proven is that you cannot prove who wrote any book in the entire world. Don't pretend that you don't know what I was saying. Clues from the text pointing to many unknown authors is completely meaningless because we know who wrote the books. It is called testimony and tradition. Let me repeat, you cannot prove to me in any conclusive manner what the author of "any" book in the entire world really is. I hope this is a little clearer since you obviously did not understand what I wrote previously.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 177 by Brian, posted 09-19-2008 2:19 PM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 180 by Brian, posted 09-19-2008 2:39 PM Open MInd has replied

  
Granny Magda
Member
Posts: 2462
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 179 of 213 (483005)
09-19-2008 2:36 PM
Reply to: Message 176 by Open MInd
09-19-2008 1:59 PM


Re: Actually Actually Getting Back On-Topic
I am explaining to you that every observant Jew around today is giving testimony that the Torah is authentic.
And it has been explained to you that this is an argument from popularity and thus invalid.
Other, religions have testimony to their books as well. However, other religions are only testifying to a man that wrote their books years ago.
If you are going to make so foolish a claim as that, you will need to back it up by proving it true of every holy book ever written. If you can't do that (which you can't), then it is an invalid argument.
The Jews, on the other hand, are testifying to a book that was accepted by 600,000 people who all believed that they had heard the voice of G-d. Therefore, there is testimony by all of the Jewish people that supports the stories written in the Torah. It is also interesting to add that the Jewish people are always zealous about having a tradition behind everything.
And where does the evidence for this claim come from in the first place? The Torah and that alone. You can't use the Torah to prove itself and the testimony of Jews who were not witness to the event counts for nothing.
It is also interesting to add that the Jewish people are always zealous about having a tradition behind everything. If you have ever read the Talmud, you would have seen that anything that does not have a clear tradition is not considered to be known.
Well that's where you're going wrong then. Tradition is no guarantee of truth. If you want to claim an unbroken tradition from Moses to the modern day, it is up to you to prove it, step by step. It is your claim, you prove it.
Asserting that a tradition such as this one must have been altered is completely baseless.
That is not the point. The point is that the traditions could have been altered.
As I said to other people here, I am giving evidence not proof. If G-d does exist, the world is evidence of his existence. It is like you doing anything with your life. Every mark that you leave on the world is evidence of your existence. Although it will be almost impossible for anyone to show that the evidence belongs to you, it does not alter the idea that you have left evidence. I am making a similar argument with regard to everything that exists and G-d.
For God's sake, you just demolished your own point! If I leave evidence of my passing, but you have no way of determining whether that evidence can be attributed to me or someone else, it is useless for practically determining whether or not it is evidence for my existence, or someone else's existence.
If you can't show why something is evidence for God's existence and not the existence of something else, then you have no evidence for God.
You know, at some point you might like to stop blithely repeating yourself and actually address what people are saying to you.
Also, checkup some of your history of Hinduism before using it as an example.
Meaning what exactly? Why don't you check it up and bring us what you find? Do your own homework.
Mutate and Survive

"The Bible is like a person, and if you torture it long enough, you can get it to say almost anything you'd like it to say." -- Rev. Dr. Francis H. Wade

This message is a reply to:
 Message 176 by Open MInd, posted 09-19-2008 1:59 PM Open MInd has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 181 by Open MInd, posted 09-19-2008 2:49 PM Granny Magda has replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 180 of 213 (483006)
09-19-2008 2:39 PM
Reply to: Message 178 by Open MInd
09-19-2008 2:29 PM


Re: Actually Getting Back On-Topic
Actually, what I have proven is that you cannot prove who wrote any book in the entire world.
because we know who wrote the books.
Bit of a contradiction there OM.
It is called testimony and tradition.
Yep, and testimony and tradition dictated that The Donation of Constantine was genuine.
Testimony and tradition go for nothing, especially in the ancient world, and especially so in a very unreliable book.
Text pointing to unknown authors really is all you have anyway, but we do know that the Tanakh is rife with anachronisms and this is just one way that proves that many verses were later additions.
Another fine way of proving later additions is to look at disjointed texts and remove them to leave a nice flowing text on the page.
Finally, the many conflicting copies of the same books that have been discovered demonstrate the unreliability of the Hebrew Bible.
Edited by Brian, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 178 by Open MInd, posted 09-19-2008 2:29 PM Open MInd has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 182 by Open MInd, posted 09-19-2008 2:55 PM Brian has replied

  
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