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Author Topic:   Great Debate, Intelligent Design, Supernatural And Thermodynamic Laws (between Buzsaw and jar only)
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 40 (169986)
12-19-2004 10:46 PM


1. I want to establish my sanity () by quoting a renouned physicist who's conception of the universe is similar, (I say similar), to that which I've believed for a long time and implicated in these forums. I have no knowledge of this person's religious beliefs.
2. I will apply Biblical teaching to this conception of the universe and apply the metaphysical (what are also said to be the supernatural) aspects of the Bible to this conception of the universe so as to show that the metaphysical as well as the physical, both of which I believe are present in the universe, a closed system, appear to work in conjunction with the scientific thermodynamic laws.
3. The fact that both 1. and 2. above are concepts taught by reasonable and academically accredited physicists, establishes my sanity, () and that my hypothesis is neither ideotic nor nonsensical as some members of this forum have charged.
Below are two quote exerpts, one of a renouned physicist and the other of someone of no renoun that I know of.
"Dr Grote Reber" graduated from the Illinois Institute of Technology in 1933 and for the next ten years, while he pioneered the field of radio astronomy, was employed as an engineer by a Chicago radio corporation. He designed and built the world's first radio telescope and during this period was the only active radio astronomer.
Endless, Boundless, Stable Universe
Time is merely a sequence of events. There is no beginning nor ending. The material universe extends beyond the greatest distances we can observe optically or by radio means. It is boundless. The energy from hot material is recycled by electrodynamic (not thermodynamic) means. The material from dying galaxies is recycled into new galaxies. Details of material and energy distribution change on a small scale. Over any large volume and long time the gross features of the universe remain stable. I am not offering a finished product. I am attempting to instill thinking about the Endless, Boundless, Stable Universe.
personal.nbnet.nb.ca/galaxy/G_Reber.html
The universe is a pure system and inasmuch as it is the only system, therefore cannot react, adiabatically or otherwise, with any other system. Entropy in such a system is zero and no laws of thermodynamics have been broken. As a matter of fact the 2nd law is not absolute and entropy can decrease. ..............the universe MUST recycle. ............ The universe is the only perpetual motion machine of the second kind.
hometown.aol.com/dwhig265
4. The universe, a closed system, consists of:
A. Eternally existing Omnipotent ID = God, occupying an undetermined measure of eternally existing boundless space.
B. That which is not contained within Omnipotent ID, God, also occupying an undetermined measure of eternally existing boundless space.
5. This Biblical universe which I am porposing has three endless spacial dimensions and one eternal time dimension, having neither beginning nor ending, satisfying scientific law 1ltd that energy is not added to a closed system.
The Bible teaches that all things, "B", came from omnipotent God, "A" and exist by and through him. It also teaches that by sending forth his multipresent Holy Spirit, regulated amounts of energy, via ID (intelligent design), ebb and flow between "A" and "B." This ID movement of energy from A to B, would have a measure of ID regulated equaliberium effect of B to that in A, regulated by A, satisfying the scientific law, 2ltd, that the passing of energy from A to B would have an equalizing effect. Omnipotent God (A), being omnipotent, remains omnipotent, but when B receives energy from A, B energy equalizes to some degree towards that of A, or vise versa if the process is reversed.

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by jar, posted 12-19-2004 11:52 PM Buzsaw has replied

Adminnemooseus
Administrator
Posts: 3974
Joined: 09-26-2002


Message 2 of 40 (169988)
12-19-2004 10:54 PM


Great Debate - Posts by Buzsaw, jar, and moderators only - all others will be deleted
Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.
As the above is an opening message to a "Great Debate", it is automaticly promoted to that forum without any review considerations.
As I stated in the ground work thread, I would prefer there be no side thread until the "Great Debate" is completed.
I belief the agreed on ground rules is that jar now has 72 hour to reply to message 1.
Adminnemooseus
ps: I added the "(between Buzsaw and jar only)" part to the topic title.
This message has been edited by Adminnemooseus, 12-19-2004 11:05 PM

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 3 of 40 (169996)
12-19-2004 11:52 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Buzsaw
12-19-2004 10:46 PM


The idea of equating GOD and the Laws of Thermodynamics is simply not possible. The First Law says that Energy cannot be created or destroyed. The total amount of energy in a closed system is limited and cannot increase or decrease. It can be transferred from one object to another or converted from one type to another, but it is limited. Therefore in any closed system there cannot be an infinite power source.
The logic for this is relatively simple. Assume a simple two entity system, one infinitely powerful (A), and the other (B) with zero energy. In a closed system the total energy is then infinite. If one unit of energy is transferred from A to B then the total energy of the system is now one work unit greater than before. That violates the 1st. Law.
There is another possibility. It is possible that the GOD might be very powerful, not infinitely powerful but so much more powerful than any human that it might seem to be infinite. That too has problems.
Assume again a very powerful object A that transfers energy to B. The total energy of A is then reduced by the same amount. Eventually, A will be reduced to the same level as B and the system will reach equilibrium. A and B will be at the same energy level. It will never be possible for B to transfer energy to A as energy can only move from an object with higher energy level to one with lower energy level. That means that B can never be at a higher energy level than A.
There is a third consideration, that A somehow gets recharged. In Biblical terms, Jesus may get energy from the Holy Spirit. That too can be shown to create problems. If that is the case the Jesus is not all powerful. Since energy can only move from an object with a higher energy level to one with lower energy level, that would mean that Jesus has less energy than the Holy Spirit.
The same analogy can be used if object A is GOD. God cannot be both all powerful and yet get recharged by some other force. To do that the other force must be at a higher energy level than GOD. So the 2nd. Law says that if GOD or Jesus or The Holy Spirit are not infinitely powerful but only very, very powerful, they will eventually be reduced to the average energy level of the system.
Finally we must consider the situation as all entities in the system approach equilibrium. The 3rd. Law deals with storage and what happens as the objects approach equilibrium. It says that as the difference in energy level between entities decreases it gets harder and harder to transfer energy, the system slows down. As GOD and all the other stuff approach equilibrium, it becomes increasingly difficult for GOD to transfer energy.
Any attempt to place GOD within a closed system and apply the Laws of Thermodynamics breaks down. The idea of an infinite amount of energy in a closed system falls down because it increases the total amount of energy in the system when any energy is transferred to another body.
If we stick to a definition that does not violate the 1st. Law, then the 2nd. and 3rd. Laws say that GOD is decreasing in energy and will eventually be at a uniform level with everything else.
There is simply no logical or reasonable way to ever bring GOD into the realm of science. Any attempt to do so either fails or diminishes GOD to being simply another Natural object.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Buzsaw, posted 12-19-2004 10:46 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by Buzsaw, posted 12-20-2004 10:53 AM jar has replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 4 of 40 (170056)
12-20-2004 10:53 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by jar
12-19-2004 11:52 PM


The idea of equating GOD and the Laws of Thermodynamics is simply not possible. The First Law says that Energy cannot be created or destroyed. The total amount of energy in a closed system is limited and cannot increase or decrease. It can be transferred from one object to another or converted from one type to another, but it is limited. Therefore in any closed system there cannot be an infinite power source.
1. If A has an infinity of units of energy and one unit moves from A to B, how is new energy added to the system? The transferred unit, don't forget, did not come from outside the closed system. It came from A within the system.
2.
The total amount of energy in a closed system is limited......
Which of the three thermodynamic laws addresses how much total energy can be in a closed system? I am not aware that a total limit amount is stated in these td laws.
3.
There is simply no logical or reasonable way to ever bring GOD into the realm of science. Any attempt to do so either fails or diminishes GOD to being simply another Natural object.
My friend, you're resorting to what you people often chastize me for, that of debating science on logic and reason. What's good for the goose is good for the gander. We need to focus on whether the td laws are violated by the Biblical universe as put forth by my hypothesis.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by jar, posted 12-19-2004 11:52 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by jar, posted 12-20-2004 2:36 PM Buzsaw has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 5 of 40 (170143)
12-20-2004 2:36 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Buzsaw
12-20-2004 10:53 AM


Buz, there is little that I can add. All of your questions were answered in my first post.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Buzsaw, posted 12-20-2004 10:53 AM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by Buzsaw, posted 12-20-2004 3:23 PM jar has replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 6 of 40 (170163)
12-20-2004 3:23 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by jar
12-20-2004 2:36 PM


Re: Questions
Buz, there is little that I can add. All of your questions were answered in my first post.
Questions? What questions? Are we to assume that your response here is a concession to my argument, contending that my ID based universe hypothesis does not violate the td laws?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by jar, posted 12-20-2004 2:36 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by jar, posted 12-20-2004 5:54 PM Buzsaw has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 7 of 40 (170227)
12-20-2004 5:54 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Buzsaw
12-20-2004 3:23 PM


Re: Questions
Questions? What questions? Are we to assume that your response here is a concession to my argument, contending that my ID based universe hypothesis does not violate the td laws?
The three points you raised in your second message.
Each and every one of those was covered in my first message.
But let me repeat.
Buz writes:
1. If A has an infinity of units of energy and one unit moves from A to B, how is new energy added to the system? The transferred unit, don't forget, did not come from outside the closed system. It came from A within the system.
Please se the first and second paragraphs of my first post wehere I said:
quote:
The idea of equating GOD and the Laws of Thermodynamics is simply not possible. The First Law says that Energy cannot be created or destroyed. The total amount of energy in a closed system is limited and cannot increase or decrease. It can be transferred from one object to another or converted from one type to another, but it is limited. Therefore in any closed system there cannot be an infinite power source.
The logic for this is relatively simple. Assume a simple two entity system, one infinitely powerful (A), and the other (B) with zero energy. In a closed system the total energy is then infinite. If one unit of energy is transferred from A to B then the total energy of the system is now one work unit greater than before. That violates the 1st. Law.
Buz writes:
2.
The total amount of energy in a closed system is limited......
Which of the three thermodynamic laws addresses how much total energy can be in a closed system? I am not aware that a total limit amount is stated in these td laws.
Please see response to your point 1.
and your point 3?
My friend, you're resorting to what you people often chastize me for, that of debating science on logic and reason. What's good for the goose is good for the gander. We need to focus on whether the td laws are violated by the Biblical universe as put forth by my hypothesis.
I don't understand what that even has to do with the discussion. Try to stay on topic if you can.
Buz, unless you have anything new to add I say this is pretty much over. I believe I covered all your issues in my first message. If you want, I can continue repeating myself but I'm not at all sure what good that would do. Your contention outlined in the OP has been pretty completely refuted.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Buzsaw, posted 12-20-2004 3:23 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by Buzsaw, posted 12-20-2004 7:32 PM jar has replied
 Message 11 by Buzsaw, posted 12-20-2004 7:45 PM jar has replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 8 of 40 (170259)
12-20-2004 7:32 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by jar
12-20-2004 5:54 PM


Re: Concession?
Well, my friend, I guess the thing to do, since you decline to address my response to your stuff is to repeat my question to you.
Buz question:
Are we to assume that your response here is a concession to my argument, contending that my ID based universe hypothesis does not violate the td laws?

The immeasurable present is forever consuming the eternal future and extending the infinite past. buz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by jar, posted 12-20-2004 5:54 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by jar, posted 12-20-2004 7:37 PM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 10 by AdminNosy, posted 12-20-2004 7:37 PM Buzsaw has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 9 of 40 (170262)
12-20-2004 7:37 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Buzsaw
12-20-2004 7:32 PM


Re: Concession?
Buz, you really can't read, can you?
I repeat:
Buz, unless you have anything new to add I say this is pretty much over. I believe I covered all your issues in my first message. If you want, I can continue repeating myself but I'm not at all sure what good that would do. Your contention outlined in the OP has been pretty completely refuted.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Buzsaw, posted 12-20-2004 7:32 PM Buzsaw has not replied

AdminNosy
Administrator
Posts: 4754
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 10 of 40 (170263)
12-20-2004 7:37 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Buzsaw
12-20-2004 7:32 PM


Thinking it over
May I suggest that instead of both you you wasting posts you take the time to examine your own arguements more carefully. To be self critical and to elaborate on what you have to say.
This debate is a bit different than others in that there is no judgeing untill it is all done so you don't get clues on what to change till it is too late.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Buzsaw, posted 12-20-2004 7:32 PM Buzsaw has not replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 11 of 40 (170266)
12-20-2004 7:45 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by jar
12-20-2004 5:54 PM


Re: Questions
Jar, perhaps you could show specifically what in your 1st post answers the following two questions. When you said you answered questions, I was thinking of my first post which had none.
1. If A has an infinity of units of energy and one unit moves from A to B, how is new energy added to the system? The transferred unit, don't forget, did not come from outside the closed system. It came from A within the system.
What, specifically, in your first post answers this question?
2. Which of the three thermodynamic laws addresses how much total energy can be in a closed system? I am not aware that a total limit amount is stated in these td laws.
What, specifically, in your first post answers this question?
Please be specific. Thanks.

The immeasurable present is forever consuming the eternal future and extending the infinite past. buz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by jar, posted 12-20-2004 5:54 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by jar, posted 12-20-2004 8:07 PM Buzsaw has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 12 of 40 (170272)
12-20-2004 8:07 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Buzsaw
12-20-2004 7:45 PM


Re: Questions
Well, let me try one more time.
The 1st. Law of Thermodynamics says that energy cannot be created or destroyed. In a closed system energy can never be created or destroyed. So if you have a source of infinite energy it would mean that as energy is transfered to other objects the total energy in the closed system increases. That is a violation of the 1st. Law of Thermodynamics.
From my initial post:
The idea of equating GOD and the Laws of Thermodynamics is simply not possible. The First Law says that Energy cannot be created or destroyed. The total amount of energy in a closed system is limited and cannot increase or decrease. It can be transferred from one object to another or converted from one type to another, but it is limited. Therefore in any closed system there cannot be an infinite power source.
The logic for this is relatively simple. Assume a simple two entity system, one infinitely powerful (A), and the other (B) with zero energy. In a closed system the total energy is then infinite. If one unit of energy is transferred from A to B then the total energy of the system is now one work unit greater than before. That violates the 1st. Law.
You cannot have an Infinite Power source in a closed system.
You also asked: "What, specifically, in your first post answers this question?" which refers to:
"2. Which of the three thermodynamic laws addresses how much total energy can be in a closed system? I am not aware that a total limit amount is stated in these td laws."
It is not a limit on the total amount of energy but rather that the TOTAL amount of energy in a closed system cannot change. This is the 1st. Law of Thermodynamics.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Buzsaw, posted 12-20-2004 7:45 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by Buzsaw, posted 12-20-2004 9:36 PM jar has replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 13 of 40 (170294)
12-20-2004 9:36 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by jar
12-20-2004 8:07 PM


Re: No
The 1st. Law of Thermodynamics says that energy cannot be created or destroyed. In a closed system energy can never be created or destroyed. So if you have a source of infinite energy it would mean that as energy is transfered to other objects the total energy in the closed system increases. That is a violation of the 1st. Law of Thermodynamics.
If the system has infinite engergy in it, i.e. A, how can a transfer of a portion of that infinite energy in the system's omnipotent A to the system's B be construed as an addition to the system? IT'S A CLOSED SYSTEM OF INFINITE ENERGY. There's nowhere for it to come from, but from inside the system.
The total amount of energy in a closed system is limited and cannot increase or decrease.
1. If the amount of energy already in it is omnipotent, how is a transfer of a part of it from omnipotent A to B an increase in this system of omnipotent/infinite power?
2. According to 1ltd, the only limit to energy is that the total cannot be increased. If it has infinite energy in it, pray tell, how can infinite energy be increased? Certainly you're not increasing infinite energy within the system by moving some of it.
Therefore in any closed system there cannot be an infinite power source.
Specifically what in any of the td laws designates how much total power can be in a closed system?
The logic for this is relatively simple. Assume a simple two entity system, one infinitely powerful (A), and the other (B) with zero energy. In a closed system the total energy is then infinite. If one unit of energy is transferred from A to B then the total energy of the system is now one work unit greater than before.
You're playing with words to obfuscate/spin here, Jar. Changing a "unit" of energy to a "work unit" does not add total energy to the system or violate 1ltd. Nice try, but I'm not buyin it nor will anyone else who understands your evasive maneuver.
You cannot have an Infinite Power source in a closed system.
LOL. Repeating a falasy doesn't make it so. I and likely our readers are still waiting for your forthright answer as to which td law says so.
It is not a limit on the total amount of energy but rather that the TOTAL amount of energy in a closed system cannot change. This is the 1st. Law of Thermodynamics.
True or false?: The only possible way to change total amount of infinite energy in a system is to lower it.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The immeasurable present is forever consuming the eternal future and extending the infinite past. buz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by jar, posted 12-20-2004 8:07 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by jar, posted 12-20-2004 9:45 PM Buzsaw has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 14 of 40 (170295)
12-20-2004 9:45 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Buzsaw
12-20-2004 9:36 PM


Let me try one more time.
Imagine a closed system. In the system are two bodies A and B.
A has infinite energy.
B has zero energy.
A transfers one unit of energy to B.
The total energy for the system is now infinite + 1 unit.
That violates the first law of Thermodynamics. The system now has more energy, therefore energy was created. Can't happen.
True or false?: The only possible way to change total amount of infinite energy in a system is to lower it.
False. The total amount of energy in a closed system is fixed, limited. Energy cannot be created or destroyed.
That's the 1st. Law of Thermodynamics.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Buzsaw, posted 12-20-2004 9:36 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by Buzsaw, posted 12-20-2004 11:18 PM jar has replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 15 of 40 (170307)
12-20-2004 11:18 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by jar
12-20-2004 9:45 PM


Re: Let me try one more time.
Imagine a closed system. In the system are two bodies A and B.
A has infinite energy.
B has zero energy.
A transfers one unit of energy to B.
The total energy for the system is now infinite + 1 unit.
That violates the first law of Thermodynamics. The system now has more energy, therefore energy was created. Can't happen.
It appears that you may be doing an obfuscative play on words here again on me. My op has the unit of energy moving/transfering from within A to B. Your wording could imply that A is grabbing a unit of energy from out of the system and transfering it to B. If that's the case, let me make it clear that the energy unit goes from within A, moving into B, adding no total energy to the infinite energy system.
The total amount of energy in a closed system is fixed, limited. Energy cannot be created or destroyed.
That's the 1st. Law of Thermodynamics.
But 1ltd does not say a system of unlimited power cannot exist, nor does it fix or limit the amount the amount of energy within a system of unlimited power. It simply says you can't add more power/energy to the closed system. No way can you add a unit of power from within a system of unlimited power to increase that unlimited power already existing in it by moving a unit of it from within A to B.
To conceive of a system of infinite energy is as sensible as the conception of a system of boundless space and infinite time.

The immeasurable present is forever consuming the eternal future and extending the infinite past. buz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by jar, posted 12-20-2004 9:45 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by jar, posted 12-20-2004 11:31 PM Buzsaw has replied

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